6 ms·

As a landlord, I can tell you that the government does NOT replace ANY of the missed rent. Moreover, while many tenants have continued to pay their rent - MANY

by q1w2 5y ago

As a landlord, I can tell you that the government does NOT replace ANY of the missed rent. Moreover, while many tenants have continued to pay their rent - MANY have gradually started realizing that I am unable to evict them, and have completely stopped paying rent. Moreover, they have started collaborating under the assumption that there is more protection if they do it together. Like other landlords, I have lost a tremendous amount of money in this pandemic. My 12 unit complex represents my retirement, so this hit me very personally. It's incredibly unfair that the most honest tenants continue to pay. The ones not paying are not paying because they know they can get away with it - not because they cannot pay - they are all still working.

maxmamis 5y ago
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I wonder why people think being a landlord is not a job.
  - maxmamis 5y ago
    why do you think it is one?
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      There's obviously work in maintaining an inherently depreciating, heavily worn asset. This is true of both landlords and anyone who loans out physical goods as a service.
      - hedgehog 5y ago
        Maintenance work is a job, owning real estate is an investment. Sometimes done by the same people, sometimes not.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        Yes, I agree that owning real estate is an investment - renting it out is a job.
        hedgehog 5y ago
        True, the parent commenter's concern is about the returns on their investment though.
      - maxmamis 5y ago
        that work is done by maintenance workers — unless the landlord is personally out performing all the repairs, in which case they deserve to be compensated for their labor like anyone else. as mentioned below, the maintenance workers mysteriously aren't the ones entitled to a third of my paycheck... secondly, ask anyone who's ever rented — landlords are notoriously awful at keeping up with maintenance. so if we're considering it a job, then they get paid far more for doing far worse work than any other occupation i can think of. does that not make you angry?
        endisneigh 5y ago
        > that work is done by maintenance workers — unless the landlord is personally out performing all the repairs, in which case they deserve to be compensated for their labor like anyone else. as mentioned below, the maintenance workers mysteriously aren't the ones entitled to a third of my paycheck... I'm not really following what you're saying here. It doesn't really make any difference whether or not the landlord does the work themselves. Either there's risk, and work to manage that risk, in renting out, or not. If there's not, then why wouldn't everyone be a landlord? > secondly, ask anyone who's ever rented — landlords are notoriously awful at keeping up with maintenance. so if we're considering it a job, then they get paid far more for doing far worse work than any other occupation i can think of. does that not make you angry? Some landlords are awful, yes I agree. Some people are bad at their jobs, you must also acknowledge. You vastly, vastly overestimate how much money an average landlord actually makes. > does that not make you angry? Why would it? If being a landlord is so easy, why wouldn't everyone do it? I like the flexibility of being able to move and not having to necessarily put down hundreds of thousands of dollars up front for property
        maxmamis 5y ago
        > If being a landlord is so easy, why wouldn't everyone do it? maybe just sit and think about this one for a minute? the answer is that they don't have the capital, which is why it's a relationship of exploitation. by virtue of owning more capital than me, my landlord feels entitled to the fruit of my own labor. it's just feudalism in a new garb, as reflected in the terms we use (landlord/lady)
      - symlinkk 5y ago
        Depreciating? That’s not how real estate works in the US
- djrogers 5y ago
  Personal attacks are not warranted here. Also, it's quite common in the US for retired people to have a lot of their retirement savings invested in rental property.
  - hedgehog 5y ago
    That doesn't read as a personal attack to me. If someone is overexposed to one risky asset due to poor portfolio construction maybe that's just life in the free market? Property owners are getting paid to take on the risk and illiquidity of holding dirt and bricks, it's not risk free and as a taxpayer I don't see why I should bail out peoples' investments. If anyone needs help paying for food, housing, healthcare, etc then let's put the money towards that. There's a reasonable argument that it's unjust that being richer by itself gives you access to better returns but small time landlords are not the worst affected by that.
- JadoJodo 5y ago
  IANAL, but it sounds as though GP has a job... Managing a 12-unit apartment complex.
  - maxmamis 5y ago
    hmmm, i live in a similarly sized building with a live-in super. he's not the one receiving a third of my monthly income. where is the rest going?
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > where is the rest going? Have you owned a normal-sized house? Repairs, insurance, inspections, et cetera. Also staging, advertising, pursuing delinquencies. Rental yields in most cities are in the low single digits. Where that isn’t true, it’s because local politicians protect the landlords by restricting development, often in cahoots with grandfathered-in renters.
      - maxmamis 5y ago
        > Repairs, insurance, inspections, et cetera rents in the city where I live are up 11% in the past year. did the cost of repairs and inspections increase by that much? > Also staging, advertising, pursuing delinquencies ah, so I'm paying for my landlord to increase their rate of return and put my fellow tenants on the street. got it.
        rascul 5y ago
        > rents in the city where I live are up 11% in the past year. did the cost of repairs and inspections increase by that much? I'm charging about 20% more than I did this time last year for repairs. Material, tool, and fuel prices have been going up, and those affect me greatly. I'll probably go up more soon. I have so much work lined up that it'll be 2023 before I can get to you if you talk to me today. And it's near impossible for me to find any helpers right now.
        pandaman 5y ago
- oceanghost 5y ago
  Thank you for the belly laugh!
- dang 5y ago
  Your account has breaking the site guidelines repeatedly. Worse yet, it has been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. That's a line at which we ban accounts, because it is not what HN is for and destroys what it is for. More explanation here: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20bimodal%20battle&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... I've therefore banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
aaomidi 5y ago
As a paying tenant, I don't think it's unfair to me if others don't pay up. Financial advice always says, don't put your eggs into one basket. If a single multi unit apartment represented your retirement, that seems to have just been bad investment? Anyway, rental assistance programs are available out there. Just need to put the work in and apply and wait.
toiletfuneral 5y ago
sudobash1 5y ago
Does a tenant's lack of payment effect them negatively in other ways? Like credit report, or ability to get an apartment later (if you evict them after this memorandum)?
somewhat_drunk 5y ago
It's a garbage situation. I hope things get back on track for you, and I hope karma gets those people what they deserve.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
Even though you can’t evict them, I would have assumed the missing payment would catch up with them eventually - e.g. by tanking their credit rating, or selling their debt to a collections agency… Is this not the case? You just swallow the loss and go on?
Aunche 5y ago
Just because they can't be evicted doesn't mean that get free rent, especially if they're employed. You can still file a lien on them or garnish their wages.
nemothekid 5y ago
>As a landlord, I can tell you that the government does NOT replace ANY of the missed rent. I can see why people get so frustrated with landlords. It’s the same kind of frustration when Wall Street asks for government intervention after making a series of bad trades
- Aunche 5y ago
  This isn't a fair analogy at all. Landlords didn't cause the cause the pandemic. If anything, the government did. However, they are the ones who are forced to pay for provide a service that the government desires, housing, at their own expense. This might make sense if it were a tax, but it disproportionately effects certain people. Imagine if they 1% of people were randomly selected to forfeit 10% of their 401k for housing during the pandemic. Even worse, a long term eviction moratorium is incentivizes landlords to filter out poorer tenants with income and credit requirements, making housing more expensive for them.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    >This isn't a fair analogy at all. Landlords didn't cause the cause the pandemic. If anything, the government did. If the government bans cigarettes, should the government then reimburse every shareholder in Philip Morris? >However, they are the ones who are forced to pay for provide a service that the government desires, housing, at their own expense Someone had to brunt the cost of the pandemic. It would have been bad public policy if the government had let people go homeless. Regardless, my point isn't that the government acted piously here, it's that real estate is a capital asset class and should be treated as such. If you get in the game of capital speculation you shouldn't get to go crying to the government when things don't go your way. I have the same amount of sympathy for people who all-in on urban real estate and the people who go all in near to expiration SPY calls. The government's primary concern shouldn't be protecting people's capital investments.
    - Aunche 5y ago
      > If the government bans cigarettes, should the government then reimburse every shareholder in Philip Morris? No, but that's because Phillip Morris isn't actively offering anything to the government. A landlord that isn't allowed to evict is. If the government forces them for provide cigarettes to soldiers during a war, they have to pay them to do so. > Someone had to brunt the cost of the pandemic. That's what taxes are for. Even money printing is better. It doesn't make sense for them to target landlords who serve low-income tenants in particular. That would be like forcing grocery stores to offer free food to poor locals. In the short term, it may help some people, but in the long term, grocery stores in poor neighborhoods would simply shut down and everyone would be worse off. That's why we have food stamps instead. > If you get in the game of capital speculation you shouldn't get to go crying to the government when things don't go your way. I agree that land speculation is particularly useless and the government should try to get rid of it, but that's not happening. Property speculation is higher than ever.
tehwebguy 5y ago
There have absolutely been rental relief options available to landlords, I don’t know if your situation qualifies. You are also entitled to sue your tenants in arrears for every penny of unpaid rent plus the costs of collecting. Even with a judgement you may not be able to collect if they have become destitute, that’s the nature of the business you are in. I sincerely hope you get a chance to retire, society would be a lot better if everyone is able to. Hopefully we don’t all need a 12 unit building to do so!
- JPKab 5y ago
  The friction to stop paying rent was essentially zero. A 1 page form with no verification. The friction to get reimbursed, depending on where you are, was very high, and in the case of my sister's situation, required cooperation of the tenant, who had zero incentive to provide it. I know you WANT to believe this program didn't screw over landlords, and that most of the people utilizing the program were honest, good human beings. That's simply not the case when you talk to any landlord. Feel free to ask the person you are replying to what their experience has been. I have yet to meet a landlord that doesn't have a hugely negative view of the entire suite of pandemic programs.
  - tehwebguy 5y ago
    It seems we are hearing exact opposite stories from people on opposite sides of the landlord / tenant relationship.
symlinkk 5y ago
Your property value likely doubled in the past year, I think you’ll survive
JPKab 5y ago
This. See another comment I made discussing my sister's experience. The childish, dorm-roomy attitude of landlords being "big faceless corporations" is wholly inaccurate and distorted. The same group also has this view that most people using this program were honest, good citizens experiencing true hardship. This is absolutely not the case according to every audit my sister's company did, as well as the research the industry organization she was elected to did. It's a bunch of dirtbags capitalizing on a poorly constructed policy.

by q1w2 5y ago

maxmamis 5y ago

endisneigh 5y ago
I wonder why people think being a landlord is not a job.
- maxmamis 5y ago
  why do you think it is one?
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    There's obviously work in maintaining an inherently depreciating, heavily worn asset. This is true of both landlords and anyone who loans out physical goods as a service.
    - hedgehog 5y ago
      Maintenance work is a job, owning real estate is an investment. Sometimes done by the same people, sometimes not.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        Yes, I agree that owning real estate is an investment - renting it out is a job.
        hedgehog 5y ago
        True, the parent commenter's concern is about the returns on their investment though.
    - maxmamis 5y ago
      that work is done by maintenance workers — unless the landlord is personally out performing all the repairs, in which case they deserve to be compensated for their labor like anyone else. as mentioned below, the maintenance workers mysteriously aren't the ones entitled to a third of my paycheck... secondly, ask anyone who's ever rented — landlords are notoriously awful at keeping up with maintenance. so if we're considering it a job, then they get paid far more for doing far worse work than any other occupation i can think of. does that not make you angry?
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        > that work is done by maintenance workers — unless the landlord is personally out performing all the repairs, in which case they deserve to be compensated for their labor like anyone else. as mentioned below, the maintenance workers mysteriously aren't the ones entitled to a third of my paycheck... I'm not really following what you're saying here. It doesn't really make any difference whether or not the landlord does the work themselves. Either there's risk, and work to manage that risk, in renting out, or not. If there's not, then why wouldn't everyone be a landlord? > secondly, ask anyone who's ever rented — landlords are notoriously awful at keeping up with maintenance. so if we're considering it a job, then they get paid far more for doing far worse work than any other occupation i can think of. does that not make you angry? Some landlords are awful, yes I agree. Some people are bad at their jobs, you must also acknowledge. You vastly, vastly overestimate how much money an average landlord actually makes. > does that not make you angry? Why would it? If being a landlord is so easy, why wouldn't everyone do it? I like the flexibility of being able to move and not having to necessarily put down hundreds of thousands of dollars up front for property
        maxmamis 5y ago
        > If being a landlord is so easy, why wouldn't everyone do it? maybe just sit and think about this one for a minute? the answer is that they don't have the capital, which is why it's a relationship of exploitation. by virtue of owning more capital than me, my landlord feels entitled to the fruit of my own labor. it's just feudalism in a new garb, as reflected in the terms we use (landlord/lady)
    - symlinkk 5y ago
      Depreciating? That’s not how real estate works in the US
djrogers 5y ago
Personal attacks are not warranted here. Also, it's quite common in the US for retired people to have a lot of their retirement savings invested in rental property.
- hedgehog 5y ago
  That doesn't read as a personal attack to me. If someone is overexposed to one risky asset due to poor portfolio construction maybe that's just life in the free market? Property owners are getting paid to take on the risk and illiquidity of holding dirt and bricks, it's not risk free and as a taxpayer I don't see why I should bail out peoples' investments. If anyone needs help paying for food, housing, healthcare, etc then let's put the money towards that. There's a reasonable argument that it's unjust that being richer by itself gives you access to better returns but small time landlords are not the worst affected by that.
JadoJodo 5y ago
IANAL, but it sounds as though GP has a job... Managing a 12-unit apartment complex.
- maxmamis 5y ago
  hmmm, i live in a similarly sized building with a live-in super. he's not the one receiving a third of my monthly income. where is the rest going?
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > where is the rest going? Have you owned a normal-sized house? Repairs, insurance, inspections, et cetera. Also staging, advertising, pursuing delinquencies. Rental yields in most cities are in the low single digits. Where that isn’t true, it’s because local politicians protect the landlords by restricting development, often in cahoots with grandfathered-in renters.
    - maxmamis 5y ago
      > Repairs, insurance, inspections, et cetera rents in the city where I live are up 11% in the past year. did the cost of repairs and inspections increase by that much? > Also staging, advertising, pursuing delinquencies ah, so I'm paying for my landlord to increase their rate of return and put my fellow tenants on the street. got it.
      - rascul 5y ago
        > rents in the city where I live are up 11% in the past year. did the cost of repairs and inspections increase by that much? I'm charging about 20% more than I did this time last year for repairs. Material, tool, and fuel prices have been going up, and those affect me greatly. I'll probably go up more soon. I have so much work lined up that it'll be 2023 before I can get to you if you talk to me today. And it's near impossible for me to find any helpers right now.
      - pandaman 5y ago
oceanghost 5y ago
Thank you for the belly laugh!
dang 5y ago
Your account has breaking the site guidelines repeatedly. Worse yet, it has been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. That's a line at which we ban accounts, because it is not what HN is for and destroys what it is for. More explanation here: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20bimodal%20battle&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... I've therefore banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

aaomidi 5y ago

As a paying tenant, I don't think it's unfair to me if others don't pay up. Financial advice always says, don't put your eggs into one basket. If a single multi unit apartment represented your retirement, that seems to have just been bad investment? Anyway, rental assistance programs are available out there. Just need to put the work in and apply and wait.

toiletfuneral 5y ago

sudobash1 5y ago

Does a tenant's lack of payment effect them negatively in other ways? Like credit report, or ability to get an apartment later (if you evict them after this memorandum)?

somewhat_drunk 5y ago

It's a garbage situation. I hope things get back on track for you, and I hope karma gets those people what they deserve.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago

Even though you can’t evict them, I would have assumed the missing payment would catch up with them eventually - e.g. by tanking their credit rating, or selling their debt to a collections agency… Is this not the case? You just swallow the loss and go on?

Aunche 5y ago

Just because they can't be evicted doesn't mean that get free rent, especially if they're employed. You can still file a lien on them or garnish their wages.

nemothekid 5y ago

>As a landlord, I can tell you that the government does NOT replace ANY of the missed rent. I can see why people get so frustrated with landlords. It’s the same kind of frustration when Wall Street asks for government intervention after making a series of bad trades

Aunche 5y ago
This isn't a fair analogy at all. Landlords didn't cause the cause the pandemic. If anything, the government did. However, they are the ones who are forced to pay for provide a service that the government desires, housing, at their own expense. This might make sense if it were a tax, but it disproportionately effects certain people. Imagine if they 1% of people were randomly selected to forfeit 10% of their 401k for housing during the pandemic. Even worse, a long term eviction moratorium is incentivizes landlords to filter out poorer tenants with income and credit requirements, making housing more expensive for them.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  >This isn't a fair analogy at all. Landlords didn't cause the cause the pandemic. If anything, the government did. If the government bans cigarettes, should the government then reimburse every shareholder in Philip Morris? >However, they are the ones who are forced to pay for provide a service that the government desires, housing, at their own expense Someone had to brunt the cost of the pandemic. It would have been bad public policy if the government had let people go homeless. Regardless, my point isn't that the government acted piously here, it's that real estate is a capital asset class and should be treated as such. If you get in the game of capital speculation you shouldn't get to go crying to the government when things don't go your way. I have the same amount of sympathy for people who all-in on urban real estate and the people who go all in near to expiration SPY calls. The government's primary concern shouldn't be protecting people's capital investments.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    > If the government bans cigarettes, should the government then reimburse every shareholder in Philip Morris? No, but that's because Phillip Morris isn't actively offering anything to the government. A landlord that isn't allowed to evict is. If the government forces them for provide cigarettes to soldiers during a war, they have to pay them to do so. > Someone had to brunt the cost of the pandemic. That's what taxes are for. Even money printing is better. It doesn't make sense for them to target landlords who serve low-income tenants in particular. That would be like forcing grocery stores to offer free food to poor locals. In the short term, it may help some people, but in the long term, grocery stores in poor neighborhoods would simply shut down and everyone would be worse off. That's why we have food stamps instead. > If you get in the game of capital speculation you shouldn't get to go crying to the government when things don't go your way. I agree that land speculation is particularly useless and the government should try to get rid of it, but that's not happening. Property speculation is higher than ever.

tehwebguy 5y ago

There have absolutely been rental relief options available to landlords, I don’t know if your situation qualifies. You are also entitled to sue your tenants in arrears for every penny of unpaid rent plus the costs of collecting. Even with a judgement you may not be able to collect if they have become destitute, that’s the nature of the business you are in. I sincerely hope you get a chance to retire, society would be a lot better if everyone is able to. Hopefully we don’t all need a 12 unit building to do so!

JPKab 5y ago
The friction to stop paying rent was essentially zero. A 1 page form with no verification. The friction to get reimbursed, depending on where you are, was very high, and in the case of my sister's situation, required cooperation of the tenant, who had zero incentive to provide it. I know you WANT to believe this program didn't screw over landlords, and that most of the people utilizing the program were honest, good human beings. That's simply not the case when you talk to any landlord. Feel free to ask the person you are replying to what their experience has been. I have yet to meet a landlord that doesn't have a hugely negative view of the entire suite of pandemic programs.
- tehwebguy 5y ago
  It seems we are hearing exact opposite stories from people on opposite sides of the landlord / tenant relationship.

symlinkk 5y ago

Your property value likely doubled in the past year, I think you’ll survive

JPKab 5y ago

This. See another comment I made discussing my sister's experience. The childish, dorm-roomy attitude of landlords being "big faceless corporations" is wholly inaccurate and distorted. The same group also has this view that most people using this program were honest, good citizens experiencing true hardship. This is absolutely not the case according to every audit my sister's company did, as well as the research the industry organization she was elected to did. It's a bunch of dirtbags capitalizing on a poorly constructed policy.