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The number of nurses that are willing to quit so they aren't required to get the vaccine is insane, and I think that might be what is driving the enrollment red

by q1w2 5y ago

The number of nurses that are willing to quit so they aren't required to get the vaccine is insane, and I think that might be what is driving the enrollment reduction.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
pavlov 5y ago
> "The number of nurses that are willing to quit so they aren't required to get the vaccine is insane" Can you point to some data on this?
- fknorangesite 5y ago
  Skimming through this[1], for example, it looks like ~1%, though it seems that in some cases they are counting "medical workers" not just nurses. [1]https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-requirements-spur-employee-terminations-resignations-numbers-from-6-health-systems.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-...
  - beerandt 5y ago
    That's fired, not quit.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  Just as a data point, the Québec government went to extensive lengths to get all nurses to vaccinate. They set a hard dead line for them to do so or else get fired. Seeing that a huge number of them would quit, they tried sweetening the deal with a 15 000$ cash payment if they stayed after the deadline (meaning, they'd have to vaccinate) and a lot of other perks. Yet, the government had to backdown right before the deadline because they literally could not see how the system wouldn't collapse with how many nurses would still be unvaxxed and thus have to be fired. And that's a government that really likes to show how "tough on covid" it is in a very very vaxxed province where you need a vaccine passport for pretty much everything now.
oblio 5y ago
That's a very strange approach to the situation, I'd say. A much safer bet is that no one wants to be doing a job where they're practically front line fighters during a war, for measly pay. I think a lot of doctors and nurses were reminded during this pandemic that unlike most other jobs, in case of major emergencies: a) they can be conscripted to work in dangerous conditions b) everyone expects them to actually do it This is on top of the day to day responsibilities and risks (malpractice, etc). Much safer to just become an accountant.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  > a) they can be conscripted to work in dangerous conditions I have lots family that left direct patient care because of how terrible the job had become (pre-pandemic) and I constantly worry, if the crisis gets any worse, that they will be drafted/conscripted back into service.
mywittyname 5y ago
Or that nursing was a shitty job and it's gone off a cliff since the pandemic started. Plus, nursing school is quite difficult and enrollment has always been constrained. I admire anyone who sticks with it, but I certainly don't fault anyone who leaves to do literally anything else. The field is a horrific shit-show right now.
tehwebguy 5y ago
Just because the number is insane doesn’t mean it’s big.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  Just because someone says something is insane, doesn't mean it is. It's typically 1% or less of the workforce. See my other comment for two long lists of hospitals and the resulting numbers of terminated workers. It's very, very small.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
> The number of nurses that are willing to quit so they aren't required to get the vaccine is insane Here are two lists of many, many hospitals that have instituted vaccination requirements and the resulting number of employees terminated for non-compliance: https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employees-have-hospitals-lost-to-vaccine-mandates-numbers-so-far https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employee... https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-requirements-spur-employee-terminations-resignations-numbers-from-6-health-systems.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-... Seems to typically be about 0.5% to 1%, occasionally 2%. Especially if they are clinical staff: good riddance. > I think that might be what is driving the enrollment reduction. I think it's more likely that they can't afford to take the classes (either not having the tuition, or having to work longer hours due to inflation), and/or they're reading all the horror stories about clinical staff suffering endless abuse and in some cases physical assaults from patients, their families, and virtual 'gangs' of anti-vaxxers. The story about the redditor who was treating a dying patient whose family refused to put on masks so they could visit (and ended up removed from the hospital by security) was particularly memorable for me. The doctor went to the trouble of meeting the family in the parking lot, and for their compassion ended up sucker-punched in the face and waking up on the ground. Security wanted them to press charges but they declined because they were afraid of harassment by gangs of anti-vaxxers organizing online. That is why people don't want to be nurses. Not because of a vaccine.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
My understanding is that a big part of this is the backwards assertion that having natural immunity was not a viable substitute for vaccination. Nurses and Healthcare workers had very high infection rates.
- mbg721 5y ago
  How can you have a substitute for a religious sacrament?
vladgur 5y ago
define insane: 1%? 5%? 50%?

by q1w2 5y ago

The number of nurses that are willing to quit so they aren't required to get the vaccine is insane, and I think that might be what is driving the enrollment reduction.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago

pavlov 5y ago

> "The number of nurses that are willing to quit so they aren't required to get the vaccine is insane" Can you point to some data on this?

fknorangesite 5y ago
Skimming through this[1], for example, it looks like ~1%, though it seems that in some cases they are counting "medical workers" not just nurses. [1]https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-requirements-spur-employee-terminations-resignations-numbers-from-6-health-systems.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-...
- beerandt 5y ago
  That's fired, not quit.
mardifoufs 5y ago
Just as a data point, the Québec government went to extensive lengths to get all nurses to vaccinate. They set a hard dead line for them to do so or else get fired. Seeing that a huge number of them would quit, they tried sweetening the deal with a 15 000$ cash payment if they stayed after the deadline (meaning, they'd have to vaccinate) and a lot of other perks. Yet, the government had to backdown right before the deadline because they literally could not see how the system wouldn't collapse with how many nurses would still be unvaxxed and thus have to be fired. And that's a government that really likes to show how "tough on covid" it is in a very very vaxxed province where you need a vaccine passport for pretty much everything now.

oblio 5y ago

That's a very strange approach to the situation, I'd say. A much safer bet is that no one wants to be doing a job where they're practically front line fighters during a war, for measly pay. I think a lot of doctors and nurses were reminded during this pandemic that unlike most other jobs, in case of major emergencies: a) they can be conscripted to work in dangerous conditions b) everyone expects them to actually do it This is on top of the day to day responsibilities and risks (malpractice, etc). Much safer to just become an accountant.

mywittyname 5y ago
> a) they can be conscripted to work in dangerous conditions I have lots family that left direct patient care because of how terrible the job had become (pre-pandemic) and I constantly worry, if the crisis gets any worse, that they will be drafted/conscripted back into service.

mywittyname 5y ago

Or that nursing was a shitty job and it's gone off a cliff since the pandemic started. Plus, nursing school is quite difficult and enrollment has always been constrained. I admire anyone who sticks with it, but I certainly don't fault anyone who leaves to do literally anything else. The field is a horrific shit-show right now.

tehwebguy 5y ago

Just because the number is insane doesn’t mean it’s big.

KennyBlanken 5y ago
Just because someone says something is insane, doesn't mean it is. It's typically 1% or less of the workforce. See my other comment for two long lists of hospitals and the resulting numbers of terminated workers. It's very, very small.

KennyBlanken 5y ago

> The number of nurses that are willing to quit so they aren't required to get the vaccine is insane Here are two lists of many, many hospitals that have instituted vaccination requirements and the resulting number of employees terminated for non-compliance: https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employees-have-hospitals-lost-to-vaccine-mandates-numbers-so-far https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employee... https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-requirements-spur-employee-terminations-resignations-numbers-from-6-health-systems.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/vaccination-... Seems to typically be about 0.5% to 1%, occasionally 2%. Especially if they are clinical staff: good riddance. > I think that might be what is driving the enrollment reduction. I think it's more likely that they can't afford to take the classes (either not having the tuition, or having to work longer hours due to inflation), and/or they're reading all the horror stories about clinical staff suffering endless abuse and in some cases physical assaults from patients, their families, and virtual 'gangs' of anti-vaxxers. The story about the redditor who was treating a dying patient whose family refused to put on masks so they could visit (and ended up removed from the hospital by security) was particularly memorable for me. The doctor went to the trouble of meeting the family in the parking lot, and for their compassion ended up sucker-punched in the face and waking up on the ground. Security wanted them to press charges but they declined because they were afraid of harassment by gangs of anti-vaxxers organizing online. That is why people don't want to be nurses. Not because of a vaccine.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

My understanding is that a big part of this is the backwards assertion that having natural immunity was not a viable substitute for vaccination. Nurses and Healthcare workers had very high infection rates.

mbg721 5y ago
How can you have a substitute for a religious sacrament?

vladgur 5y ago

define insane: 1%? 5%? 50%?