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I can't help but think of Intel reading this. What happened to the Islamic world that they didn't capitalize on that progress and reach industrialization first

I can't help but think of Intel reading this. What happened to the Islamic world that they didn't capitalize on that progress and reach industrialization first? Was it the Mongol setback, or did European infighting force the tech advancement until it surpassed the East?

inglor_cz 5y ago
There isn't any consensus on this. Mongol raids destroyed a lot of Islamic cities, including Baghdad, a centre of learning. [0] Fundamentalist ideas and sects rose to the fore, such as the Hanbalis [1], who were suspicious or hostile towards secularism and secular science. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanbali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanbali
- trhway 5y ago
  Before Mongols there were Seljuks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire. And fundamentalists of course played a major role. Good movie illustrating it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physician_(2013_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physician_(2013_film) The movie also points out the conduit role Jews played between Muslim and Cristian worlds and thus the results of the persecution.
  - foobarian 5y ago
    Amazing movie tip, thank you very much!
eternalban 5y ago
I've thought about this as well. Various factors contributed to ultimately displace the trade routes from land to water. These factors range from Mongol invasions, to geography. When trade stopped the flow of ideas stopped. The current geopolitical conflict is about preventing the shifting of trade routes back to land from Western controlled waterways. It is amazing to me to consider for example Armenia's history and see the constant back and forth between a west and east aligned contenders and see its echo it contemporary events. Ditto for the overall high level connectivity between east and west, and how its shifts mirror civilization balance between East and West.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > The current geopolitical conflict is about preventing the shifting of trade routes back to land from Western controlled waterways. The "One Belt One Road" initiative is literally being marketed as an attempt to re-establish those same land-based trade routes. Though it's also criticized by some since it's perceived as coming with too many strings attached.
Symmetry 5y ago
That's hard to answer. The philosophical, mathematical, and scientific flourishing in the the silk road cities of central Asia in particular during the Islamic golden age seems to have ended in the 1000s. Some people blame the influential book The Incoherence of the Philosophers[1], maybe they're right or maybe it just captured the zeitgeist and was effect rather than cause. Before too long the Mongols came. Plan A for China was originally to kill everyone, burn the fields, and raise the biggest herds ever on the resulting grassland. Thankfully this was quickly abandoned for Plan B, conquer and tax the people. But Plan B needed larger armies than Plan A and when Khwarezmia offered an unforgivable insult while the bulk of the Mongol army was needed pacifying China they got the Plan A treatment and why it seems so weird to us that a contender for largest city in the world could have ever been in Turkmenistan. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philoso...
bigthymer 5y ago
A user below mentioned that once the land-based trade switched to water-based, central Asia lost their main source of wealth since all of the overland trade was taxed. I agree. Another reason the Islamic world didn't reach industrialization first is because of a lack of capital concentration and resulting lack of a large merchant class. Christian Europe practiced primogeniture so large estates passed to a single, next heir. Islamic laws resulted in accumulated wealth being dispersed among more inheritors each successive generation. Furthermore, the Muslim world did not indigenously develop a legal corporate form that lasted beyond the life of any of the partners further limiting the ability to form large companies. If you have access, check out some of Timur Kuran's papers on Google Scholar.

inglor_cz 5y ago

There isn't any consensus on this. Mongol raids destroyed a lot of Islamic cities, including Baghdad, a centre of learning. [0] Fundamentalist ideas and sects rose to the fore, such as the Hanbalis [1], who were suspicious or hostile towards secularism and secular science. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanbali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanbali

trhway 5y ago
Before Mongols there were Seljuks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire. And fundamentalists of course played a major role. Good movie illustrating it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physician_(2013_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physician_(2013_film) The movie also points out the conduit role Jews played between Muslim and Cristian worlds and thus the results of the persecution.
- foobarian 5y ago
  Amazing movie tip, thank you very much!

eternalban 5y ago

I've thought about this as well. Various factors contributed to ultimately displace the trade routes from land to water. These factors range from Mongol invasions, to geography. When trade stopped the flow of ideas stopped. The current geopolitical conflict is about preventing the shifting of trade routes back to land from Western controlled waterways. It is amazing to me to consider for example Armenia's history and see the constant back and forth between a west and east aligned contenders and see its echo it contemporary events. Ditto for the overall high level connectivity between east and west, and how its shifts mirror civilization balance between East and West.

zozbot234 5y ago
> The current geopolitical conflict is about preventing the shifting of trade routes back to land from Western controlled waterways. The "One Belt One Road" initiative is literally being marketed as an attempt to re-establish those same land-based trade routes. Though it's also criticized by some since it's perceived as coming with too many strings attached.

Symmetry 5y ago

That's hard to answer. The philosophical, mathematical, and scientific flourishing in the the silk road cities of central Asia in particular during the Islamic golden age seems to have ended in the 1000s. Some people blame the influential book The Incoherence of the Philosophers[1], maybe they're right or maybe it just captured the zeitgeist and was effect rather than cause. Before too long the Mongols came. Plan A for China was originally to kill everyone, burn the fields, and raise the biggest herds ever on the resulting grassland. Thankfully this was quickly abandoned for Plan B, conquer and tax the people. But Plan B needed larger armies than Plan A and when Khwarezmia offered an unforgivable insult while the bulk of the Mongol army was needed pacifying China they got the Plan A treatment and why it seems so weird to us that a contender for largest city in the world could have ever been in Turkmenistan. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philoso...

bigthymer 5y ago

A user below mentioned that once the land-based trade switched to water-based, central Asia lost their main source of wealth since all of the overland trade was taxed. I agree. Another reason the Islamic world didn't reach industrialization first is because of a lack of capital concentration and resulting lack of a large merchant class. Christian Europe practiced primogeniture so large estates passed to a single, next heir. Islamic laws resulted in accumulated wealth being dispersed among more inheritors each successive generation. Furthermore, the Muslim world did not indigenously develop a legal corporate form that lasted beyond the life of any of the partners further limiting the ability to form large companies. If you have access, check out some of Timur Kuran's papers on Google Scholar.