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The EU and especially Germany make it harder and harder for startups and indie makers to survive. Now when you start a project in Germany, not only do you have

by TekMol 5y ago

The EU and especially Germany make it harder and harder for startups and indie makers to survive. Now when you start a project in Germany, not only do you have to have an "Imprint" on your site which shows your private address (if you work from home or are a digital nomad) but you also are at a disadvantage because you cannot use all the free tools that startup founders outside of the EU can use. Has anybody here in Europe considered moving to another country or setting up a company in another country because of this? How do all the famous indie makers from Europe handle this? I never find any information on their sites with an address and they all use Google Analytics.

lawtalkinghuman 5y ago
> you cannot use all the free tools that startup founders outside of the EU can use. You can use the ones that don't infringe on user privacy.
7steps2much 5y ago
The "imprint" doesn't necessarily need to show your private address though, only an address of "someone responsible for the contents of these website." Do note that "someone responsible" can be a legal entity! Not only cooperations but also a "Verein" or a similar legal construct. Also, note that you do not need to list your address, only a "Anschrift", which often times is the same thing as an address, but really just means "If I write this on a letter it has to be delivered to you." So a postal box for example works just fine. If you are a startup you will have all of these things anyways, I don't know a single startup that isn't also a legal entity. Indie makers is a bit more tricky, but as mentioned before it is pretty easy to get around this requirement via a "Verein" or something similar. As for free tools not being usable, I honestly don't think it is that big a problem. Google Analytics doesn't work for you? There are other offers out there. Or you could selfhost matomo. Or if you want then you can just go ahead and run an awk script on your Webserver log. As for not finding information and on the sites of famous European indie makers, I am going to let you on on a secret. The "Impressum" was always intended so that consumers could have a look at who they are dealing with over the internet. To this day it is still handled like that. If you aren't selling anything or doing anything else that "a classic" company would do it is highly unlikely anyone is going to care whether or not you have an Impressum.
- TekMol 5y ago
  Sure. You can set up an address somewhere. Rent it. Set up some kind of mail forwarding or go there regularely to get it. Sure. You can put in a day of work to self host or write your own analytics solution. But this already puts you at a disadvantage. Because of the time you have to invest and the sub par solutions. Google Analytics is simply better than the alternatives. And it does not end here. Every website I know uses a multitude of international tools. All of them connecting the visitor to some international servers which provide the service. Cutting European indie makers off from all these tools will put them at a huge disadvantage.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    The UE thinks it can reinvent the USSR better. I don't expect it to survive past 2030.
    - yarpen_z 5y ago
      How does it happen that in such discussions there is always at least one person who ends up equating everything they don't like to socialism? Are "socialism" and "communism" the only words they know? Clearly, they don't know very well the meaning of these words. And regarding the "EU won't survive past 20XY". I've heard this argument almost non-stop from anti-EU politicians since 2007. Financial crisis, Greek debt crisis, Brexit, now coronavirus - every bad event is a good one to predict the collapse of the EU.
      - jmnicolas 5y ago
        I didn't mention communism nor socialism (except in the name USSR). I compare the EU to the USSR because they're both top down bureaucracies that think they knows best and can erase nations under their rule. It works for a time but when it inevitably collapses, wars are almost a certainty. You hear about the Euro and the UE collapse since 2007 because the process started back then. Eastern countries don't share the liberal ideology of the west. They're in as long as money flows. Once it stops why would they let the west tell them how to think? Then there are the southern countries (PIGS + France) that are bankrupt, the north don't want to pay. What do you think will happen when Covid can't be used to throw money at the problem any more? Lastly look at the average European banks leverage. They won't survive another 2008. FWIW I have skin in the game: I'm French, living in France.
vladharbuz 5y ago
I've started three businesses in the EU and I can't say I share your feelings. Regarding the Impressum ("imprint"), the information you need to put on your website is already public, since the address of your company is recorded in the commercial register when you incorporate it. It can be annoying to have to use your home address, I agree, but there are plenty of coworking spaces or even just mailbox services that can solve this problem. Regarding Google Analytics, I don't find it a competitive disadvantage to have to host analytics software that is less detrimental to user privacy. Are there any other issues or annoyances you ran into that contribute to the impression you stated?
- TekMol 5y ago
  Most indie makers build their product first and only incorporate if it becomes big. If ever.
  - nerdawson 5y ago
    Indie maker is a nice label, but if they're attempting to make money, they're acting like a business and should operate with a certain degree of transparency. Self-employed or a separate legal entity is a technicality.
  - mrweasel 5y ago
    That’s just making thing needlessly complicanted in some countries. Registering a business is something you can do rather easily, I know people who have a company registered, just in case. It makes everything easier, less troubles with taxes and better legal protection (as in: a failed project won’t cost you your home).
    - MinorTom 5y ago
      > Registering a business is something you can do rather easily, Not in Germany, doing so will cost you at least ~€1000.
nerdawson 5y ago
I'm generally in support of website owners having to publish a certain amount of information about who operates the site. Especially when the site is commercial in nature or collects visitor data. If you're publishing ads, sending people to affiliate links, selling products, whatever, you're operating a business. All businesses should be held to a minimum standard of accountability.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
j_san 5y ago
I don't think the imprint is really hindering. Not using SASS services (e.g. Firebase) just really sucks though. We still use it (started with it before privacy shield was demolished) but we will have to migrate eventually. Don't know what we'll use exactly, maybe managed kubernetes with some platform for an easier workflow running on it? Idk yet.
- openplatypus 5y ago
  Hi there, not sure how relevant this is, but there appear to be few “alternatives” to the firebase. Some open-source [1]. And if you already consider Kubernetes, even better. It removes a lot (but not all) of headaches for managing infrastructure. I wish there was better market for quality k8s operators to automate the management tasks for some specialized deployments. It is open source, the hosted vendors will emerge, so you will be able to buy it, if not yet. That said, I sympathize. Re-doing already done feature rather than focusing on new things can feel discouraging. [1] https://supabase.com/docs/oss https://supabase.com/docs/oss - no affiliation
juanse 5y ago
In Spain is kind of the same. Indeed entrepreneurs often hear how countries like Germany make everything cheaper and easier to do. Personally I use the self-host version of plausible, and I remove this cookie banner that is sooo invasive and by the way improve page-size and UX. I use a virtual server precisely in Germany for less than 3€ a month and had it by my own subdomain like analytics.mydomain.eu
mrweasel 5y ago
So because you want it to be easier to start a business, you want users to have less privacy and less legal protection? Google Analytics is free for businesses, but not because Google feel line they need to help small business get started. Also consider that starting a business in countries like Denmark is easier that starting one in the US. Ease of doing business isn’t the only thing holding back EU startups.
openplatypus 5y ago
Germany is making it hard, but on tax level. Not even talking about the amount you pay, but the complexity of the system. But that's it. EU/Germany might not encourage a haphazard hodgepodge of poorly vetted services as squashed into a start-up. And it is a good thing. Some regulation might have got a bit extreme. Granted. I think they will be revisited as the time goes by. But really, this feels like a reaction to contempt that many businesses have towards protecting their users.
timeon 5y ago
> you cannot use all the free tools Aka spyware.
heartbeats 5y ago
You're considering moving because you'd have to spend a day setting up a post box and new analytics? You don't think you're being a wee bit dramatic here, homie?
- MinorTom 5y ago
  > a post box It needs to be a specific kind of legal service address. Using a post box is illegal and can cost you a lot of money if a competitor finds out. > new analytics It's a lot more than that, under Schrems II you can't use any good cloud provider, nor most SaaS.
Animats 5y ago
you have to have an "Imprint" on your site which shows your private address That's been the law in the EU since 2001.[1] 1. In addition to other information requirements established by Community law, Member States shall ensure that the service provider shall render easily, directly and permanently accessible to the recipients of the service and competent authorities, at least the following information: (a) the name of the service provider; (b) the geographic address at which the service provider is established; (c) the details of the service provider, including his electronic mail address, which allow him to be contacted rapidly and communicated with in a direct and effective manner; (d) where the service provider is registered in a trade or similar public register, the trade register in which the service provider is entered and his registration number, or equivalent means of identification in that register; The definition of "service provider" is (b) "any natural or legal person providing an information society service". This is a basic requirement of European Union trade. It's intended to encourage cross-border trade, by insuring that, if there is a problem, the customer can find the seller. So, anonymous online businesses are illegal in the EU. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0031:EN:HTML https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...

by TekMol 5y ago

lawtalkinghuman 5y ago

> you cannot use all the free tools that startup founders outside of the EU can use. You can use the ones that don't infringe on user privacy.

7steps2much 5y ago

The "imprint" doesn't necessarily need to show your private address though, only an address of "someone responsible for the contents of these website." Do note that "someone responsible" can be a legal entity! Not only cooperations but also a "Verein" or a similar legal construct. Also, note that you do not need to list your address, only a "Anschrift", which often times is the same thing as an address, but really just means "If I write this on a letter it has to be delivered to you." So a postal box for example works just fine. If you are a startup you will have all of these things anyways, I don't know a single startup that isn't also a legal entity. Indie makers is a bit more tricky, but as mentioned before it is pretty easy to get around this requirement via a "Verein" or something similar. As for free tools not being usable, I honestly don't think it is that big a problem. Google Analytics doesn't work for you? There are other offers out there. Or you could selfhost matomo. Or if you want then you can just go ahead and run an awk script on your Webserver log. As for not finding information and on the sites of famous European indie makers, I am going to let you on on a secret. The "Impressum" was always intended so that consumers could have a look at who they are dealing with over the internet. To this day it is still handled like that. If you aren't selling anything or doing anything else that "a classic" company would do it is highly unlikely anyone is going to care whether or not you have an Impressum.

TekMol 5y ago
Sure. You can set up an address somewhere. Rent it. Set up some kind of mail forwarding or go there regularely to get it. Sure. You can put in a day of work to self host or write your own analytics solution. But this already puts you at a disadvantage. Because of the time you have to invest and the sub par solutions. Google Analytics is simply better than the alternatives. And it does not end here. Every website I know uses a multitude of international tools. All of them connecting the visitor to some international servers which provide the service. Cutting European indie makers off from all these tools will put them at a huge disadvantage.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  The UE thinks it can reinvent the USSR better. I don't expect it to survive past 2030.
  - yarpen_z 5y ago
    How does it happen that in such discussions there is always at least one person who ends up equating everything they don't like to socialism? Are "socialism" and "communism" the only words they know? Clearly, they don't know very well the meaning of these words. And regarding the "EU won't survive past 20XY". I've heard this argument almost non-stop from anti-EU politicians since 2007. Financial crisis, Greek debt crisis, Brexit, now coronavirus - every bad event is a good one to predict the collapse of the EU.
    - jmnicolas 5y ago
      I didn't mention communism nor socialism (except in the name USSR). I compare the EU to the USSR because they're both top down bureaucracies that think they knows best and can erase nations under their rule. It works for a time but when it inevitably collapses, wars are almost a certainty. You hear about the Euro and the UE collapse since 2007 because the process started back then. Eastern countries don't share the liberal ideology of the west. They're in as long as money flows. Once it stops why would they let the west tell them how to think? Then there are the southern countries (PIGS + France) that are bankrupt, the north don't want to pay. What do you think will happen when Covid can't be used to throw money at the problem any more? Lastly look at the average European banks leverage. They won't survive another 2008. FWIW I have skin in the game: I'm French, living in France.

vladharbuz 5y ago

I've started three businesses in the EU and I can't say I share your feelings. Regarding the Impressum ("imprint"), the information you need to put on your website is already public, since the address of your company is recorded in the commercial register when you incorporate it. It can be annoying to have to use your home address, I agree, but there are plenty of coworking spaces or even just mailbox services that can solve this problem. Regarding Google Analytics, I don't find it a competitive disadvantage to have to host analytics software that is less detrimental to user privacy. Are there any other issues or annoyances you ran into that contribute to the impression you stated?

TekMol 5y ago
Most indie makers build their product first and only incorporate if it becomes big. If ever.
- nerdawson 5y ago
  Indie maker is a nice label, but if they're attempting to make money, they're acting like a business and should operate with a certain degree of transparency. Self-employed or a separate legal entity is a technicality.
- mrweasel 5y ago
  That’s just making thing needlessly complicanted in some countries. Registering a business is something you can do rather easily, I know people who have a company registered, just in case. It makes everything easier, less troubles with taxes and better legal protection (as in: a failed project won’t cost you your home).
  - MinorTom 5y ago
    > Registering a business is something you can do rather easily, Not in Germany, doing so will cost you at least ~€1000.

nerdawson 5y ago

I'm generally in support of website owners having to publish a certain amount of information about who operates the site. Especially when the site is commercial in nature or collects visitor data. If you're publishing ads, sending people to affiliate links, selling products, whatever, you're operating a business. All businesses should be held to a minimum standard of accountability.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

j_san 5y ago

I don't think the imprint is really hindering. Not using SASS services (e.g. Firebase) just really sucks though. We still use it (started with it before privacy shield was demolished) but we will have to migrate eventually. Don't know what we'll use exactly, maybe managed kubernetes with some platform for an easier workflow running on it? Idk yet.

openplatypus 5y ago
Hi there, not sure how relevant this is, but there appear to be few “alternatives” to the firebase. Some open-source [1]. And if you already consider Kubernetes, even better. It removes a lot (but not all) of headaches for managing infrastructure. I wish there was better market for quality k8s operators to automate the management tasks for some specialized deployments. It is open source, the hosted vendors will emerge, so you will be able to buy it, if not yet. That said, I sympathize. Re-doing already done feature rather than focusing on new things can feel discouraging. [1] https://supabase.com/docs/oss https://supabase.com/docs/oss - no affiliation

juanse 5y ago

In Spain is kind of the same. Indeed entrepreneurs often hear how countries like Germany make everything cheaper and easier to do. Personally I use the self-host version of plausible, and I remove this cookie banner that is sooo invasive and by the way improve page-size and UX. I use a virtual server precisely in Germany for less than 3€ a month and had it by my own subdomain like analytics.mydomain.eu

mrweasel 5y ago

So because you want it to be easier to start a business, you want users to have less privacy and less legal protection? Google Analytics is free for businesses, but not because Google feel line they need to help small business get started. Also consider that starting a business in countries like Denmark is easier that starting one in the US. Ease of doing business isn’t the only thing holding back EU startups.

openplatypus 5y ago

Germany is making it hard, but on tax level. Not even talking about the amount you pay, but the complexity of the system. But that's it. EU/Germany might not encourage a haphazard hodgepodge of poorly vetted services as squashed into a start-up. And it is a good thing. Some regulation might have got a bit extreme. Granted. I think they will be revisited as the time goes by. But really, this feels like a reaction to contempt that many businesses have towards protecting their users.

timeon 5y ago

> you cannot use all the free tools Aka spyware.

heartbeats 5y ago

You're considering moving because you'd have to spend a day setting up a post box and new analytics? You don't think you're being a wee bit dramatic here, homie?

MinorTom 5y ago
> a post box It needs to be a specific kind of legal service address. Using a post box is illegal and can cost you a lot of money if a competitor finds out. > new analytics It's a lot more than that, under Schrems II you can't use any good cloud provider, nor most SaaS.

Animats 5y ago

you have to have an "Imprint" on your site which shows your private address That's been the law in the EU since 2001.[1] 1. In addition to other information requirements established by Community law, Member States shall ensure that the service provider shall render easily, directly and permanently accessible to the recipients of the service and competent authorities, at least the following information: (a) the name of the service provider; (b) the geographic address at which the service provider is established; (c) the details of the service provider, including his electronic mail address, which allow him to be contacted rapidly and communicated with in a direct and effective manner; (d) where the service provider is registered in a trade or similar public register, the trade register in which the service provider is entered and his registration number, or equivalent means of identification in that register; The definition of "service provider" is (b) "any natural or legal person providing an information society service". This is a basic requirement of European Union trade. It's intended to encourage cross-border trade, by insuring that, if there is a problem, the customer can find the seller. So, anonymous online businesses are illegal in the EU. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0031:EN:HTML https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...