11 ms·

I'm in favor of removing the race question from the census. It proliferates collectivist thinking (my people/kin vs others, based on bloodlines or appearance) o

I'm in favor of removing the race question from the census. It proliferates collectivist thinking (my people/kin vs others, based on bloodlines or appearance) over individualism. It is also used as a justification for implementing discriminatory policies, ironically in the name of fighting discrimination.

ryneandal 5y ago
No. Especially for the Native American population. It's important for us to have statistics on those with Native blood, especially since the government was entitled to legally kidnap children from family regardless of home stability as recently as 1978.
- hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
  Did they actually use that power that recently, or was this one of those "200 year old law" situations?
  - ryneandal 5y ago
    Forced boarding schools were extensively used as forced assimilation up until 1978, when the Indian Child Welfare Act [1] was passed. These boarding schools were notoriously strict, often abusive[2], and often church-run [3]. This led to an unknown number of deaths in the Native children population, many of whom are only just now being discovered and identified [4,5]. Unfortunately, the ICWA has been under attack via the courts recently even though the United States has a history of abuse and maltreatment of Native American children [6]. 1: https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/systemwide/diverse-populations/americanindian/icwa/ https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/systemwide/diverse-popul... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20121206131053/http://www.amnestyusa.org/node/87342 https://web.archive.org/web/20121206131053/http://www.amnest... 3: https://web.archive.org/web/20050829051045/http://sacbee.com/static/archive/news/projects/native/day2_main.html https://web.archive.org/web/20050829051045/http://sacbee.com... 4: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/native-american-boarding-school-deaths-nebraska.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/native-american-boardi... 5: https://www.wsj.com/articles/canadian-graves-of-indigenous-children-found-with-help-from-oral-histories-11626384990?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/canadian-graves-of-indigenous-c... 6: https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_federal-judges-reconsider-indian-child-welfare-law/6183105.html https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_federal-judges-reconsider-indi... I highly recommend Cecily Hilleary's relevant articles on VOA if you're unfamiliar of the grotesque and disturbing history of forced assimilation and cultural genocide through America's Indian Boarding schools. They are excellent primers on the topic, highlighting yet another example of the US's embarrassing treatment of America's indigenous population. Examples of Cecily Hilleary's great investigative work on boarding schools and maltreatment of Native children: - https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_oneida-nation-boarding-school-students-return-home-century-later/6171229.html https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_oneida-nation-boarding-school-... - https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_native-americans-feds-own-americas-indian-school-history/6207014.html https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_native-americans-feds-own-amer... - https://www.voanews.com/a/indian-boarding-schools-outings-apprendiceships-or-indentured-servitude/6300451.html https://www.voanews.com/a/indian-boarding-schools-outings-ap... - https://www.voanews.com/a/assessing-blame-for-deaths-of-indian-boarding-school-students/6307594.html https://www.voanews.com/a/assessing-blame-for-deaths-of-indi... - https://www.voanews.com/a/scholars-work-to-untangle-the-complex-legacy-of-federal-indian-boarding-schools-/6329370.html https://www.voanews.com/a/scholars-work-to-untangle-the-comp... Some recommended reading if you're interested in learning more about Indian boarding schools: - https://www.amazon.com/Pipestone-Life-Indian-Boarding-School/dp/080614114X/ https://www.amazon.com/Pipestone-Life-Indian-Boarding-School... - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0700629602/ref=wl_mb_wl_huc_mrai_2_dp https://www.amazon.com/dp/0700629602/ref=wl_mb_wl_huc_mrai_2... - https://www.amazon.com/Middle-Five-Indian-Schoolboys-Omaha/dp/0803279019/ https://www.amazon.com/Middle-Five-Indian-Schoolboys-Omaha/d... - https://www.amazon.com/Stringing-Rosaries-Unforgivable-Contemporary-Indigenous/dp/1946163104 https://www.amazon.com/Stringing-Rosaries-Unforgivable-Conte... - https://www.amazon.com/Boarding-School-Blues-Educational-Experiences/dp/0803294638/ https://www.amazon.com/Boarding-School-Blues-Educational-Exp... - https://www.amazon.com/They-Called-Me-Uncivilized-Everyday/dp/1440162786 https://www.amazon.com/They-Called-Me-Uncivilized-Everyday/d...
karpierz 5y ago
The census exists to inform policy. If there is discrimination based on race, then we're better off measuring it so we can address it than burying our heads in the sand. Of course, this may lead to targeted policies, just as insulin is applied to people with a diabetes diagnosis, and not to the general population.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > census exists to inform policy Race is a social construct. The census strengthens that construct. OP’s argument is that race should be a weaker construct, which is a legitimate if debatable argument.
  - Loughla 5y ago
    Second OP's point is that yes, race is a social construct, with clear and consistent impacts in real people's lives every day. The census exists to measure things that may be used to inform policy. Therefore, something such as race, even if it is an arbitrary social construct used to divide based on nothing more than skin color, is important to measure against other factors such as income and address. It helps you decide when/where/what is being discriminatory. Race should be a weaker social construct, yes. But living in Infinite Fun Space doesn't help anyone today in the real.
    - retrac 5y ago
      As pointed out elsewhere in the comments on this thread, the census may have accidentally ended up enforcing white hegemony in America. See the anecdotes of people suppressing the reporting of partial indigenous or African heritage in order to pass as white. The data made America look far more white than it ever was. And despite the recent trend I doubt the effect has vanished. Are we so sure we want to be using that data for policy?
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
    Ignoring race doesn’t make it stop being a problem. We tried that from basically the 1980s till the mid-2000s and things really only got worse. Race may have stopped being on the minds of white people, but it is always on the minds of non-white people every time they interact with a white person. Not engaging on racial issues is why we had riots in 2020.
kerneloftruth 5y ago
True. And, the question is now meaningless, too, because people can select multiple answers, and can base their choice(s) on self perception rather than actual lineage.
- bigbillheck 5y ago
  Racism is also based on perception and not actual lineages.
teaearlgraycold 5y ago
Trying to eliminate the concept of race for those that aren’t racist only further empowers the racists. You can’t jump the gun. In your personal life I think it’s good to end any acknowledgement of race, but you still need to keep the social dynamics in mind. Like an atheist in church, don’t go around yelling God’s not real. Sit down and think about how these people collectively keep this idea alive.

ryneandal 5y ago

No. Especially for the Native American population. It's important for us to have statistics on those with Native blood, especially since the government was entitled to legally kidnap children from family regardless of home stability as recently as 1978.

hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
Did they actually use that power that recently, or was this one of those "200 year old law" situations?
- ryneandal 5y ago
  Forced boarding schools were extensively used as forced assimilation up until 1978, when the Indian Child Welfare Act [1] was passed. These boarding schools were notoriously strict, often abusive[2], and often church-run [3]. This led to an unknown number of deaths in the Native children population, many of whom are only just now being discovered and identified [4,5]. Unfortunately, the ICWA has been under attack via the courts recently even though the United States has a history of abuse and maltreatment of Native American children [6]. 1: https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/systemwide/diverse-populations/americanindian/icwa/ https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/systemwide/diverse-popul... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20121206131053/http://www.amnestyusa.org/node/87342 https://web.archive.org/web/20121206131053/http://www.amnest... 3: https://web.archive.org/web/20050829051045/http://sacbee.com/static/archive/news/projects/native/day2_main.html https://web.archive.org/web/20050829051045/http://sacbee.com... 4: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/native-american-boarding-school-deaths-nebraska.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/native-american-boardi... 5: https://www.wsj.com/articles/canadian-graves-of-indigenous-children-found-with-help-from-oral-histories-11626384990?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/canadian-graves-of-indigenous-c... 6: https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_federal-judges-reconsider-indian-child-welfare-law/6183105.html https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_federal-judges-reconsider-indi... I highly recommend Cecily Hilleary's relevant articles on VOA if you're unfamiliar of the grotesque and disturbing history of forced assimilation and cultural genocide through America's Indian Boarding schools. They are excellent primers on the topic, highlighting yet another example of the US's embarrassing treatment of America's indigenous population. Examples of Cecily Hilleary's great investigative work on boarding schools and maltreatment of Native children: - https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_oneida-nation-boarding-school-students-return-home-century-later/6171229.html https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_oneida-nation-boarding-school-... - https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_native-americans-feds-own-americas-indian-school-history/6207014.html https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_native-americans-feds-own-amer... - https://www.voanews.com/a/indian-boarding-schools-outings-apprendiceships-or-indentured-servitude/6300451.html https://www.voanews.com/a/indian-boarding-schools-outings-ap... - https://www.voanews.com/a/assessing-blame-for-deaths-of-indian-boarding-school-students/6307594.html https://www.voanews.com/a/assessing-blame-for-deaths-of-indi... - https://www.voanews.com/a/scholars-work-to-untangle-the-complex-legacy-of-federal-indian-boarding-schools-/6329370.html https://www.voanews.com/a/scholars-work-to-untangle-the-comp... Some recommended reading if you're interested in learning more about Indian boarding schools: - https://www.amazon.com/Pipestone-Life-Indian-Boarding-School/dp/080614114X/ https://www.amazon.com/Pipestone-Life-Indian-Boarding-School... - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0700629602/ref=wl_mb_wl_huc_mrai_2_dp https://www.amazon.com/dp/0700629602/ref=wl_mb_wl_huc_mrai_2... - https://www.amazon.com/Middle-Five-Indian-Schoolboys-Omaha/dp/0803279019/ https://www.amazon.com/Middle-Five-Indian-Schoolboys-Omaha/d... - https://www.amazon.com/Stringing-Rosaries-Unforgivable-Contemporary-Indigenous/dp/1946163104 https://www.amazon.com/Stringing-Rosaries-Unforgivable-Conte... - https://www.amazon.com/Boarding-School-Blues-Educational-Experiences/dp/0803294638/ https://www.amazon.com/Boarding-School-Blues-Educational-Exp... - https://www.amazon.com/They-Called-Me-Uncivilized-Everyday/dp/1440162786 https://www.amazon.com/They-Called-Me-Uncivilized-Everyday/d...

karpierz 5y ago

The census exists to inform policy. If there is discrimination based on race, then we're better off measuring it so we can address it than burying our heads in the sand. Of course, this may lead to targeted policies, just as insulin is applied to people with a diabetes diagnosis, and not to the general population.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> census exists to inform policy Race is a social construct. The census strengthens that construct. OP’s argument is that race should be a weaker construct, which is a legitimate if debatable argument.
- Loughla 5y ago
  Second OP's point is that yes, race is a social construct, with clear and consistent impacts in real people's lives every day. The census exists to measure things that may be used to inform policy. Therefore, something such as race, even if it is an arbitrary social construct used to divide based on nothing more than skin color, is important to measure against other factors such as income and address. It helps you decide when/where/what is being discriminatory. Race should be a weaker social construct, yes. But living in Infinite Fun Space doesn't help anyone today in the real.
  - retrac 5y ago
    As pointed out elsewhere in the comments on this thread, the census may have accidentally ended up enforcing white hegemony in America. See the anecdotes of people suppressing the reporting of partial indigenous or African heritage in order to pass as white. The data made America look far more white than it ever was. And despite the recent trend I doubt the effect has vanished. Are we so sure we want to be using that data for policy?
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  Ignoring race doesn’t make it stop being a problem. We tried that from basically the 1980s till the mid-2000s and things really only got worse. Race may have stopped being on the minds of white people, but it is always on the minds of non-white people every time they interact with a white person. Not engaging on racial issues is why we had riots in 2020.

kerneloftruth 5y ago

True. And, the question is now meaningless, too, because people can select multiple answers, and can base their choice(s) on self perception rather than actual lineage.

bigbillheck 5y ago
Racism is also based on perception and not actual lineages.

teaearlgraycold 5y ago

Trying to eliminate the concept of race for those that aren’t racist only further empowers the racists. You can’t jump the gun. In your personal life I think it’s good to end any acknowledgement of race, but you still need to keep the social dynamics in mind. Like an atheist in church, don’t go around yelling God’s not real. Sit down and think about how these people collectively keep this idea alive.