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I think these kind of incidents are "averted" on a daily basis. It's just that air traffic controllers don't share that information every time. There's a great

I think these kind of incidents are "averted" on a daily basis. It's just that air traffic controllers don't share that information every time. There's a great deal of near-miss incident at many airports around the world. But we don't hear about it.

primitivesuave 5y ago
FAA-specific source: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/aviations-opaque-definition-of-the-near-miss/509027/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/aviat...
mnw21cam 5y ago
I'm going to argue against you. The airline industry does have a culture that encourages even the slightest incidents to be reported, analysed, and protected against in the future. There are multiple youtube channels (Mentour, VAS aviation for example) that collect large numbers of these and present/explain them very well. That this particular incident was swept under the carpet until someone else noticed it would be shocking to a western pilot or controller. In fact, it seems from the article that it was shocking to the person who did discover it.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > I'm going to argue against you. The airline industry does have a culture that encourages even the slightest incidents to be reported, analysed, and protected against in the future. The airline industry in some countries may have that culture. In some countries it may not. The societal culture may 'override' the workplace/industry culture: > Executives of South Korea’s Asiana Airlines say they’re altering its pilot training program to encourage communication among senior managers and subordinates, after a July plane crash in San Francisco that killed three people and injured dozens. > A U.S. hearing into the crash revealed one of the pilots said he did not feel he had the authority to abort a low-speed landing as individuals at a “higher level” had to make that decision. * https://www.cnbc.com/2014/02/10/asiana-airlines-to-pursue-cockpit-culture-changes-after-us-crash.html https://www.cnbc.com/2014/02/10/asiana-airlines-to-pursue-co... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 > A culture that frowns upon crew resource management: the pilot flying the airplane was senior in rank and stature to both the instructor pilot and copilot who would have been reluctant to speak up. This isn't an Asian thing at all, the Japanese have fully embraced CRM. The Koreans and Russians have not. * https://code7700.com/case_study_asiana_airlines_214.htm https://code7700.com/case_study_asiana_airlines_214.htm
  - rlpb 5y ago
    Notably the article says "The DGCA is investigating the matter and said that it would take the strictest action against those responsible for the incident." This sounds like regular Indian culture and the statement may be there just for the ears of the general public. But applied to aviation, "taking the strictest action against those responsible" is basically the opposite of Just Culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_culture).
    - tremon 5y ago
      Disagree. As per your link, "in a system of just culture, discipline is linked to inappropriate behavior, rather than harm". Failing to disclose such an incident would lead to disciplinary action in most countries, including the US I suspect.
      - rlpb 5y ago
        Note that the statement seems to be referring to disciplinary action to those responsible for the incident itself, rather than anything to do with failure to disclose.
  - mnw21cam 5y ago
    > The airline industry in some countries may have that culture. In some countries it may not. Sure, there is variation. One fairly good indication of countries that have a bad incident investigation culture are those that have airlines banned from flying in the EU. I'd like to point out a difference in your example though. South Korea did have some problems with crew resource management, because of the culture of seniority. A lot of effort has been spent on solving that problem. However, that is a separate issue to the idea that incidents are brushed under the carpet. That's a different culture problem. Both are bad.
mmaunder 5y ago
Yeah as far as I’m aware there is no public reporting of conflicts. (Loss of separation minima, also called a “deal” in ATC speak) It’s feasible to build this using ADS-B data.

primitivesuave 5y ago

FAA-specific source: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/aviations-opaque-definition-of-the-near-miss/509027/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/aviat...

mnw21cam 5y ago

I'm going to argue against you. The airline industry does have a culture that encourages even the slightest incidents to be reported, analysed, and protected against in the future. There are multiple youtube channels (Mentour, VAS aviation for example) that collect large numbers of these and present/explain them very well. That this particular incident was swept under the carpet until someone else noticed it would be shocking to a western pilot or controller. In fact, it seems from the article that it was shocking to the person who did discover it.

throw0101a 5y ago
> I'm going to argue against you. The airline industry does have a culture that encourages even the slightest incidents to be reported, analysed, and protected against in the future. The airline industry in some countries may have that culture. In some countries it may not. The societal culture may 'override' the workplace/industry culture: > Executives of South Korea’s Asiana Airlines say they’re altering its pilot training program to encourage communication among senior managers and subordinates, after a July plane crash in San Francisco that killed three people and injured dozens. > A U.S. hearing into the crash revealed one of the pilots said he did not feel he had the authority to abort a low-speed landing as individuals at a “higher level” had to make that decision. * https://www.cnbc.com/2014/02/10/asiana-airlines-to-pursue-cockpit-culture-changes-after-us-crash.html https://www.cnbc.com/2014/02/10/asiana-airlines-to-pursue-co... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 > A culture that frowns upon crew resource management: the pilot flying the airplane was senior in rank and stature to both the instructor pilot and copilot who would have been reluctant to speak up. This isn't an Asian thing at all, the Japanese have fully embraced CRM. The Koreans and Russians have not. * https://code7700.com/case_study_asiana_airlines_214.htm https://code7700.com/case_study_asiana_airlines_214.htm
- rlpb 5y ago
  Notably the article says "The DGCA is investigating the matter and said that it would take the strictest action against those responsible for the incident." This sounds like regular Indian culture and the statement may be there just for the ears of the general public. But applied to aviation, "taking the strictest action against those responsible" is basically the opposite of Just Culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_culture).
  - tremon 5y ago
    Disagree. As per your link, "in a system of just culture, discipline is linked to inappropriate behavior, rather than harm". Failing to disclose such an incident would lead to disciplinary action in most countries, including the US I suspect.
    - rlpb 5y ago
      Note that the statement seems to be referring to disciplinary action to those responsible for the incident itself, rather than anything to do with failure to disclose.
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  > The airline industry in some countries may have that culture. In some countries it may not. Sure, there is variation. One fairly good indication of countries that have a bad incident investigation culture are those that have airlines banned from flying in the EU. I'd like to point out a difference in your example though. South Korea did have some problems with crew resource management, because of the culture of seniority. A lot of effort has been spent on solving that problem. However, that is a separate issue to the idea that incidents are brushed under the carpet. That's a different culture problem. Both are bad.

mmaunder 5y ago

Yeah as far as I’m aware there is no public reporting of conflicts. (Loss of separation minima, also called a “deal” in ATC speak) It’s feasible to build this using ADS-B data.