7 ms·

When crossing languages shouldn’t pronunciation change?

blowski 5y ago
Pronunciation changes even when crossing accents, let alone languages. The prescriptivists will say there is a correct pronunciation, and any deviation from it is wrong. But the descriptivists will ask why it matters if we all understand that we’re referring to the same thing. It’s an age-old debate.
- jagged-chisel 5y ago
  I find it amusing that Linus himself pronounces both with the same vowel sounds, indicating that obviously the kernel is named for its creator. While my American cohorts refuse to use the same vowels, choosing “Lie” for the first syllable of the man’s name, and “Lih” for the first syllable of the kernel. Then berate me for following the pattern but using US English pronunciation rules. But you guys know what I’m talking about, so just shut up and let’s get on with this deployment, mmk?
- patmorgan23 5y ago
  * insert oxford comma debate/every grammer debate ever*
msh 5y ago
For names I would say no.
- kergonath 5y ago
  That does not work in general. Some sounds just do not exist in some languages. Also, for example a name can sound quite different pronounced with an Irish and a Yorkshire accent, and there are similar distinctions in most languages. Which one becomes the canonical prononciation then?
  - simiones 5y ago
    I think that for proper names, it's common courtesy to try to prounounce someone's name as close as possible to the way they pronounce it themselves. This may be difficult when using sounds that simply don't exist in your language, and I'm not suggesting going as far as learning how to pronounce new consonants. But, if someone spells their name "St John" but introduces themselves as "Mr Sinjohn" (sɪndʒɪn), it's common courtesy to refer to them as Mr "Sinjohn", not Mr "Saint John". Or, if their name is written as Xi (in Pinyin), but read as Shi, you should call them "Shi", not "Ksi", even though you may not be using the exact right "Sh" sound, and you will probably not be able to match the right pitch contour.
    - yodsanklai 5y ago
      I'm already happy when people are able to copy/paste my name properly in an email. It seems 30% of the people aren't even able to do that.
    - technothrasher 5y ago
      I kind of like when I go to a foreign county and people pronounce my name in a different way than I'm used to hearing it. Having them struggle to get it "right" just doesn't work anyway and makes them struggle needlessly. Even in my own country, there are two common ways to pronounce my last name and while I only use one way myself, I really don't mind when people use the other way. I named my son, "Alistair", and there seems to be a million ways people pronounce that. He doesn't seem to care either.
    - mst 5y ago
      Human language is one place where "comes as close as you reasonably can to following Postel's Law" seems to work out pretty well.
    - touisteur 5y ago
      Oh try that when your name is written the same in many languages. Amelia, Lionel, Robert... Yeah I prefer people not worry too much and call me something I understand and move on. My wife's name is Asia (diminutive for her official name, Joanna) which is to be pronounced in Polish. She gets really annoyed when French people try and pronounce it. The 'si' sound is closer to the English 'sh' than the French 'ch' and we don't have this 'sh' sound in French. It really sounds ugly in French... The effort is appreciated but it's grating and she often ends up kindly telling them 'use Joanna instead'.
- quicklime 5y ago
  There are many cases where it does. For example if you say "Australia" in an Australian accent, Japanese people probably wouldn't understand. So you'd have to use the "correct" Japanese pronunciation: "oh-su-to-ra-ri-a". Another example is "Hyundai", which seems to have at least five different pronunciations. Apparently Koreans say "HYUN-day"[1], while the British say "high-UUN-digh", Americans say "HUN-day"[2] or something like "Han-die" in Spanish-speaking parts. Australians say "he-UN-day"[3]. Note to prescriptivists that this is how Hyundai's various subsidiaries say it in ads. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-25813198 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-25813198 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI3-fJlmnoM&t=50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI3-fJlmnoM&t=50s [3]: https://youtu.be/RyupLuOVny0?t=15 https://youtu.be/RyupLuOVny0?t=15
colonwqbang 5y ago
Linus never said "this is how Linux should be pronounced". He only said "I pronounce Linux as 'Linux'".
- badRNG 5y ago
  I also pronounce Linux as "Linux."
  - atoav 5y ago
    I pronounce it as "Linux" in German, while I pronounce it as "Linux" in English.

Pronunciation changes even when crossing accents, let alone languages. The prescriptivists will say there is a correct pronunciation, and any deviation from it is wrong. But the descriptivists will ask why it matters if we all understand that we’re referring to the same thing. It’s an age-old debate.

jagged-chisel 5y ago
I find it amusing that Linus himself pronounces both with the same vowel sounds, indicating that obviously the kernel is named for its creator. While my American cohorts refuse to use the same vowels, choosing “Lie” for the first syllable of the man’s name, and “Lih” for the first syllable of the kernel. Then berate me for following the pattern but using US English pronunciation rules. But you guys know what I’m talking about, so just shut up and let’s get on with this deployment, mmk?
patmorgan23 5y ago
* insert oxford comma debate/every grammer debate ever*

msh 5y ago

For names I would say no.

kergonath 5y ago
That does not work in general. Some sounds just do not exist in some languages. Also, for example a name can sound quite different pronounced with an Irish and a Yorkshire accent, and there are similar distinctions in most languages. Which one becomes the canonical prononciation then?
- simiones 5y ago
  I think that for proper names, it's common courtesy to try to prounounce someone's name as close as possible to the way they pronounce it themselves. This may be difficult when using sounds that simply don't exist in your language, and I'm not suggesting going as far as learning how to pronounce new consonants. But, if someone spells their name "St John" but introduces themselves as "Mr Sinjohn" (sɪndʒɪn), it's common courtesy to refer to them as Mr "Sinjohn", not Mr "Saint John". Or, if their name is written as Xi (in Pinyin), but read as Shi, you should call them "Shi", not "Ksi", even though you may not be using the exact right "Sh" sound, and you will probably not be able to match the right pitch contour.
  - yodsanklai 5y ago
    I'm already happy when people are able to copy/paste my name properly in an email. It seems 30% of the people aren't even able to do that.
  - technothrasher 5y ago
    I kind of like when I go to a foreign county and people pronounce my name in a different way than I'm used to hearing it. Having them struggle to get it "right" just doesn't work anyway and makes them struggle needlessly. Even in my own country, there are two common ways to pronounce my last name and while I only use one way myself, I really don't mind when people use the other way. I named my son, "Alistair", and there seems to be a million ways people pronounce that. He doesn't seem to care either.
  - mst 5y ago
    Human language is one place where "comes as close as you reasonably can to following Postel's Law" seems to work out pretty well.
  - touisteur 5y ago
    Oh try that when your name is written the same in many languages. Amelia, Lionel, Robert... Yeah I prefer people not worry too much and call me something I understand and move on. My wife's name is Asia (diminutive for her official name, Joanna) which is to be pronounced in Polish. She gets really annoyed when French people try and pronounce it. The 'si' sound is closer to the English 'sh' than the French 'ch' and we don't have this 'sh' sound in French. It really sounds ugly in French... The effort is appreciated but it's grating and she often ends up kindly telling them 'use Joanna instead'.
quicklime 5y ago
There are many cases where it does. For example if you say "Australia" in an Australian accent, Japanese people probably wouldn't understand. So you'd have to use the "correct" Japanese pronunciation: "oh-su-to-ra-ri-a". Another example is "Hyundai", which seems to have at least five different pronunciations. Apparently Koreans say "HYUN-day"[1], while the British say "high-UUN-digh", Americans say "HUN-day"[2] or something like "Han-die" in Spanish-speaking parts. Australians say "he-UN-day"[3]. Note to prescriptivists that this is how Hyundai's various subsidiaries say it in ads. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-25813198 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-25813198 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI3-fJlmnoM&t=50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI3-fJlmnoM&t=50s [3]: https://youtu.be/RyupLuOVny0?t=15 https://youtu.be/RyupLuOVny0?t=15

colonwqbang 5y ago

Linus never said "this is how Linux should be pronounced". He only said "I pronounce Linux as 'Linux'".

badRNG 5y ago
I also pronounce Linux as "Linux."
- atoav 5y ago
  I pronounce it as "Linux" in German, while I pronounce it as "Linux" in English.