5 ms·

How does the FBI art crime team operate?

59 points by prismatic 5y ago

politician 5y ago
I can't believe we dedicate law enforcement resources to policing what amounts to a global tax avoidance marketplace.
- vernie 5y ago
  You make it sound pretty appealing.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  That seems like the right thing to dedicate law enforcement resources to.
  - Tostino 5y ago
    If they were putting their resources into actually stopping the tax avoidance, but instead they are put into going after those who scam the people trying to avoid taxes.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      It's not a zero sum game. Not everyone who is an FBI agent can be a lawyer or a lawmaker.
      - Tostino 5y ago
        I've had a number of things stolen over the years, but somehow there isn't a whole lot of resources put into it. Strange how that works. Why should these people get preferential treatment with an entire department dedicated to tracking those who may try and defraud them when running their tax avoidance scheme?
        gambiting 5y ago
        No they shouldn't, but again, this isn't a zero sum game - FBI is a federal agency, while your local law enforcement is a state or even just a city specific department. If we took all money away from FBI or closed their art fraud department, it would have made zero difference to your local law enforcement. But yes I agree it's not fair.
        pydry 5y ago
        Your local law enforcement is as likely to pull you over and confiscate any cash you've got in the car on the basis that it may have committed a crime. Feels a bit like it is a zero sum game to me.
  - sneak 5y ago
    That presupposes that maximizing tax revenue is a net good for society.
    - Tostino 5y ago
      You are simply arguing for those with the most capital to have a tax loophole unavailable to others.
  - pibechorro 5y ago
    Or we can just stop taxing that front of the economy, let it operate in the open legally instead od driving it underground, and save our tax dollars for policing which actually improves our daily life, like burglery, murders, etc. What is the last time the cops ever returned a stolen bicycle? Spending millions to chase tax money is just the machine feeding itself. No one is harmed when a Picasso changes hands without a percentage being handed to the local burocracy. Last I checked we still have rampant crime in all the inner cities the world over. Fix that first.
- auntienomen 5y ago
  OP username checks out.
- dapids 5y ago
  username checks out
- tediousdemise 5y ago
  How else do you expect LEO to get paid? They want some of that sweet tax avoidance revenue too! Jokes aside, taxes are an awesome social construct that should fund many essential things that citizens need such as a stable infrastructure, utilities, healthcare, public education, etc. The problem is that you can't really choose how you want your taxes to be spent, since the popular thing is to elect someone else to (mis)manage the taxes for you. Government mismanagement and corruption is pervasive at all levels - city, state and federal. I live in a high COL area with high taxes, yet the roads, schools, and other publicly funded things are trash. It's crystal clear that the money I pay in taxes is not being spent appropriately, so it's no wonder people try to avoid paying taxes altogether. We need an elective tax system that lets you choose where you want the tax money to be funneled. For a simple and naïve example, say you have a flat 20% federal tax, that lets you pick which public institutions you want the funds to be delivered to. Maybe 5% to NASA, 5% to veterans, and the remaining 10% could be left up to the government to decide. This would be an example of "voting with your wallet," but it's just a fantasy. The government will never give that kind of power to us. So to this I say, just keep paying your taxes like the model citizen that you are, and don't question it! I hope you have fun paying the government forever on any private property or income that you have, since you have no choice. It's not your fault that you don't have a choice either, since it was robbed from you. You were born into circumstance. Almost all land on earth has been claimed by governments or private entities, so you have no where left to turn. Just by virtue of being alive, you owe the government overlords for all of your creature comforts: the water you drink, the land you live on, the food you eat, the hole you shit in, and so much more. They will steal your labor in exchange for pieces of paper that will ultimately find their way right back to them.
  - space_fountain 5y ago
    It sounds like what you are describing are just donations. Since taxes need to be redistributive donations are a difficult way to make society work. Some people are selfish
    - tediousdemise 5y ago
      Yeah, that's why I think making part of the taxes non-electable could be a solid choice. That way, you can still give the government some autonomy for spending, just not all of it (because from my jaded perspective, governments aren't the best at decision making or execution).
Lamad123 5y ago
These stupid modals jumping at you on every click!!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Tostino 5y ago
Text of the article for those who couldn't read past the login prompt: https://pastebin.com/iYu9LNLV https://pastebin.com/iYu9LNLV (was too long to paste directly)
afdsfadafd 5y ago
Pix or it didn't happen. (No pix and it did happen, I suppose).
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > Pix or it didn't happen. (No pix and it did happen, I suppose). These two statements are opposites. What you want is this tautology p → q ⟺ ¬p ∨ q By which you can see that "pix or it didn't happen" is equivalent to "no pix implies it didn't happen".
  - treasfdfs 5y ago
    Depends on what 'it' means, I was referring to 'it' being theft. Pix present => no theft happened, no pix => theft happened. It's xor rather than logical implication.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      p ⊕ q is still not equivalent to ¬p ∧ ¬q, though in this case they're just unrelated rather than being opposites.
      - treasfdfs 5y ago
        It's (¬p ∧ q) ∨ (p ∧ ¬q) meaning 'either one or the other' ((no pics and theft) or (pics and no theft)). So its boolean inequality which is xor. Pedantry is kewl.
        thaumasiotes 5y ago
        > It's (¬p ∧ q) ∨ (p ∧ ¬q) meaning 'either one or the other' ((no pics and theft) or (pics and no theft)). So its boolean inequality which is xor. This is the definition of xor, but it does not appear to be related to any of your previous comments. > Pedantry is kewl. OK.
        5y ago
Isamu 5y ago
So they mention money laundering. Serious question: does that explain at least some of the hype surrounding NFTs?
- rafale 5y ago
  In the NFT/crypto world, you will see more liquidity mining in the form of wash trades in the hope of amassing a bigger share of a future platform airdrop (e.g. the much awaited but so far not happening OpenSea airdrop)
- vmception 5y ago
  Nobody in the art space has a worse experience when using NFTs (except maybe in transaction fees on some networks). It is either the exact same experience or a better one. So, "yesn't"? It would improve the same aspects of the fine art world if thats what some market participants like art pieces for. You can move more money faster with crypto so if you want to rationalize those movements with NFT purchases - or just attract the people who want to do that but found crypto unrelateable before NFTs - then thats available too. A lot of these questions evaporate when you use them yourself. Its fun to imagine everything is a wash trade, but when a bot or person bids on your own NFTs and you use that money to pay rent or buy a car, you personally will then understand that the assumption is simply irrelevant. Its like "yeah, sure the NFT space is ripe for money laundering and wash trading, there are also other people buying and selling, the distinction doesn't matter" Even if the bots are money laundering, hoping to resell art they buy to someone else, are they successfully money laundering? We don't know and its not our problem, so who cares? People worried that the bids will dry up on artwork they own if they attempted to enter the space for investment? Who cares! Thats a risk for everyone in any asset class. Take the risk or don't.
  - Doxin 5y ago
    > Nobody in the art space has a worse experience when using NFTs What about all the digital artists getting their art stolen and sold as NFTs? NFTs are hardly a solution to anything, let alone a better solution. There's a disconnect between NFTs and the real world that many of the proponents fail to address.
dredmorbius 5y ago
What I'd really like to know is what happened to turbocharge art auctions in about 1974. Google Ngram Viewer for "art market", "art auction", "Christie's", and "Sotheby's": https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=art+market%2Cart+auction%2C+Christie%27s%2C+Sotheby%27s&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cart%20market%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cart%20auction%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CChristie%20%27s%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CSotheby%20%27s%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=art+market%2Ca...

59 points by prismatic 5y ago

politician 5y ago

I can't believe we dedicate law enforcement resources to policing what amounts to a global tax avoidance marketplace.

vernie 5y ago
You make it sound pretty appealing.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vorpalhex 5y ago
That seems like the right thing to dedicate law enforcement resources to.
- Tostino 5y ago
  If they were putting their resources into actually stopping the tax avoidance, but instead they are put into going after those who scam the people trying to avoid taxes.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    It's not a zero sum game. Not everyone who is an FBI agent can be a lawyer or a lawmaker.
    - Tostino 5y ago
      I've had a number of things stolen over the years, but somehow there isn't a whole lot of resources put into it. Strange how that works. Why should these people get preferential treatment with an entire department dedicated to tracking those who may try and defraud them when running their tax avoidance scheme?
      - gambiting 5y ago
        No they shouldn't, but again, this isn't a zero sum game - FBI is a federal agency, while your local law enforcement is a state or even just a city specific department. If we took all money away from FBI or closed their art fraud department, it would have made zero difference to your local law enforcement. But yes I agree it's not fair.
        pydry 5y ago
        Your local law enforcement is as likely to pull you over and confiscate any cash you've got in the car on the basis that it may have committed a crime. Feels a bit like it is a zero sum game to me.
- sneak 5y ago
  That presupposes that maximizing tax revenue is a net good for society.
  - Tostino 5y ago
    You are simply arguing for those with the most capital to have a tax loophole unavailable to others.
- pibechorro 5y ago
  Or we can just stop taxing that front of the economy, let it operate in the open legally instead od driving it underground, and save our tax dollars for policing which actually improves our daily life, like burglery, murders, etc. What is the last time the cops ever returned a stolen bicycle? Spending millions to chase tax money is just the machine feeding itself. No one is harmed when a Picasso changes hands without a percentage being handed to the local burocracy. Last I checked we still have rampant crime in all the inner cities the world over. Fix that first.
auntienomen 5y ago
OP username checks out.
dapids 5y ago
username checks out
tediousdemise 5y ago
How else do you expect LEO to get paid? They want some of that sweet tax avoidance revenue too! Jokes aside, taxes are an awesome social construct that should fund many essential things that citizens need such as a stable infrastructure, utilities, healthcare, public education, etc. The problem is that you can't really choose how you want your taxes to be spent, since the popular thing is to elect someone else to (mis)manage the taxes for you. Government mismanagement and corruption is pervasive at all levels - city, state and federal. I live in a high COL area with high taxes, yet the roads, schools, and other publicly funded things are trash. It's crystal clear that the money I pay in taxes is not being spent appropriately, so it's no wonder people try to avoid paying taxes altogether. We need an elective tax system that lets you choose where you want the tax money to be funneled. For a simple and naïve example, say you have a flat 20% federal tax, that lets you pick which public institutions you want the funds to be delivered to. Maybe 5% to NASA, 5% to veterans, and the remaining 10% could be left up to the government to decide. This would be an example of "voting with your wallet," but it's just a fantasy. The government will never give that kind of power to us. So to this I say, just keep paying your taxes like the model citizen that you are, and don't question it! I hope you have fun paying the government forever on any private property or income that you have, since you have no choice. It's not your fault that you don't have a choice either, since it was robbed from you. You were born into circumstance. Almost all land on earth has been claimed by governments or private entities, so you have no where left to turn. Just by virtue of being alive, you owe the government overlords for all of your creature comforts: the water you drink, the land you live on, the food you eat, the hole you shit in, and so much more. They will steal your labor in exchange for pieces of paper that will ultimately find their way right back to them.
- space_fountain 5y ago
  It sounds like what you are describing are just donations. Since taxes need to be redistributive donations are a difficult way to make society work. Some people are selfish
  - tediousdemise 5y ago
    Yeah, that's why I think making part of the taxes non-electable could be a solid choice. That way, you can still give the government some autonomy for spending, just not all of it (because from my jaded perspective, governments aren't the best at decision making or execution).

Lamad123 5y ago

These stupid modals jumping at you on every click!!

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Tostino 5y ago

Text of the article for those who couldn't read past the login prompt: https://pastebin.com/iYu9LNLV https://pastebin.com/iYu9LNLV (was too long to paste directly)

afdsfadafd 5y ago

Pix or it didn't happen. (No pix and it did happen, I suppose).

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> Pix or it didn't happen. (No pix and it did happen, I suppose). These two statements are opposites. What you want is this tautology p → q ⟺ ¬p ∨ q By which you can see that "pix or it didn't happen" is equivalent to "no pix implies it didn't happen".
- treasfdfs 5y ago
  Depends on what 'it' means, I was referring to 'it' being theft. Pix present => no theft happened, no pix => theft happened. It's xor rather than logical implication.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    p ⊕ q is still not equivalent to ¬p ∧ ¬q, though in this case they're just unrelated rather than being opposites.
    - treasfdfs 5y ago
      It's (¬p ∧ q) ∨ (p ∧ ¬q) meaning 'either one or the other' ((no pics and theft) or (pics and no theft)). So its boolean inequality which is xor. Pedantry is kewl.
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        > It's (¬p ∧ q) ∨ (p ∧ ¬q) meaning 'either one or the other' ((no pics and theft) or (pics and no theft)). So its boolean inequality which is xor. This is the definition of xor, but it does not appear to be related to any of your previous comments. > Pedantry is kewl. OK.
        5y ago

Isamu 5y ago

So they mention money laundering. Serious question: does that explain at least some of the hype surrounding NFTs?

rafale 5y ago
In the NFT/crypto world, you will see more liquidity mining in the form of wash trades in the hope of amassing a bigger share of a future platform airdrop (e.g. the much awaited but so far not happening OpenSea airdrop)
vmception 5y ago
Nobody in the art space has a worse experience when using NFTs (except maybe in transaction fees on some networks). It is either the exact same experience or a better one. So, "yesn't"? It would improve the same aspects of the fine art world if thats what some market participants like art pieces for. You can move more money faster with crypto so if you want to rationalize those movements with NFT purchases - or just attract the people who want to do that but found crypto unrelateable before NFTs - then thats available too. A lot of these questions evaporate when you use them yourself. Its fun to imagine everything is a wash trade, but when a bot or person bids on your own NFTs and you use that money to pay rent or buy a car, you personally will then understand that the assumption is simply irrelevant. Its like "yeah, sure the NFT space is ripe for money laundering and wash trading, there are also other people buying and selling, the distinction doesn't matter" Even if the bots are money laundering, hoping to resell art they buy to someone else, are they successfully money laundering? We don't know and its not our problem, so who cares? People worried that the bids will dry up on artwork they own if they attempted to enter the space for investment? Who cares! Thats a risk for everyone in any asset class. Take the risk or don't.
- Doxin 5y ago
  > Nobody in the art space has a worse experience when using NFTs What about all the digital artists getting their art stolen and sold as NFTs? NFTs are hardly a solution to anything, let alone a better solution. There's a disconnect between NFTs and the real world that many of the proponents fail to address.

dredmorbius 5y ago

What I'd really like to know is what happened to turbocharge art auctions in about 1974. Google Ngram Viewer for "art market", "art auction", "Christie's", and "Sotheby's": https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=art+market%2Cart+auction%2C+Christie%27s%2C+Sotheby%27s&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cart%20market%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cart%20auction%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CChristie%20%27s%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CSotheby%20%27s%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=art+market%2Ca...