13 ms·

When tracking your period lets companies track you

172 points by ta988 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
truthwhisperer 5y ago
Syonyk 5y ago
Is there a transcript? Not a fan of audio or video forms of information, far easier to read. However, no surprise. Literally every app anymore ought to be considered from the perspective of, "What can this app possibly get from my phone, by technical standards, regardless of what I think of that?" It's got accelerometer data and gyro data? It's doing something nasty with it. It's got location data? Oh, baby, hope it's precise! Contact list data? Call data? Wifi network data? Bluetooth data? Yeah, all of that going upstream for those juicy revenue streams on the backend. I mean, RobinHood is literally doing nothing but selling order streams to high frequency trading companies to front-run the transactions people are making "for free." There is no such thing as an app anymore that works in your interest, as a guiding first order principle. > Their rebuttal to all this surveillance, of the commodification of our behaviors as users is simple: personal empowerment and regulation. Oh. Well then. Maybe they'd be so kind as to offer a pony to go with "personal empowerment," and perhaps some recommendations or written regulation that might go with the second?
- tzs 5y ago
  The icon on the far right on the same line as the play button shows the transcript.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    Greatly appreciated, thanks! > E TOGNI: Since I've started using Flo, every time my period is late, even just by one day, I receive ads on Facebook, Google and YouTube about pregnancy tests all the time. And then if I'm late for more than one day, I receive other ads about family planning, how to have a healthy baby. And, you know, a lot of products are just advertised to me constantly. I'm bombarded with this. And this happens every month for the past six years (laughter). AGGGH. That's not "funny, cute, lulz." That's "Remove from phone and never look back!" I'm glad to see surveillance capitalism in the general discussion, but, man, it's depressing just how much it's taken over literally everything in the past decade.
- seba_dos1 5y ago
  > There is no such thing as an app anymore that works in your interest, as a guiding first order principle. There's Free Software.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    If you have Android, there's an app for that: https://www.f-droid.org/ https://www.f-droid.org/.
  - leppr 5y ago
    Android users have F-droid. It has been my first destination for a while when I need an utility app. Many (relatively) expensive paid apps are also fully pro-user.
    - rogual 5y ago
      I wonder if it would be feasible to have some sort of trademarked "Pro-User" badge, and an organization which vets apps and licenses the trademark to them? I know such things exist for "cruelty-free" (i.e. no animal testing) -- why not for "MBA tech bullshit free?"
      - leppr 5y ago
        I like Steam's implementation they call curators[1]. Any marketplace can implement a similar system, and you could have a curator list for any kind of criterion. [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/curators/topcurators/ https://store.steampowered.com/curators/topcurators/
    - mook 5y ago
      Unfortunately I couldn't spot a good period tracking app on F-Droid (or other open source ones on GitHub); something pretty with a decent estimate when the next one would be would be nice. Does anybody have recommendations?
      - seba_dos1 5y ago
- ginko 5y ago
  > Is there a transcript? Not a fan of audio or video forms of information, far easier to read. If you're in the EU it'll show you a GDPR choice then refer you to the text-only article if you decline: https://text.npr.org/1068930998 https://text.npr.org/1068930998 (have to say, of all the news sources NPR handles this the best)
- feanaro 5y ago
  For phone apps, you may like https://trackercontrol.org/ https://trackercontrol.org/. It's mostly set and forget and blocks 99% of tracking by default in my experience.
  - vermilingua 5y ago
    Trackers are a tiny part of the problem, most nefarious data collection isn’t some third party ad network (in apps), but is intrinsically bound to the core functionality of the product. It’s impossible to block the data collection when the data collection is the service.
    - feanaro 5y ago
      From my experience, this is a problem only with the largest and most popular of apps, the kinds that are made by surveillance companies such as Google and Facebook. And even those usually use dedicated domains for tracking. So while not perfect, I think Tracker Control works exceedingly well in practice. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good and all that.
- busymom0 5y ago
  > There is no such thing as an app anymore that works in your interest, as a guiding first order principle. Hey there’s still a few of us left. I am the developer of mood tracker MoodWell, a similar genre apps as this post. Users input a ton of their private data in the app- from their mood and emotions data to what activities they are doing, notes, photos, weather etc. to track their mental health and how it’s affected by different activities, weather etc. This is very personal data and that’s why my app keeps all this data locally. Only if they use iCloud sync between multiple devices, then it goes to Apple iCloud server. But none of that ever gets sent to me and I have no control or access over their data. I have similar reputation about privacy for my other apps including my hacker news client app HACK, school timetable app, resume builder website etc. my resume builder website even builds the resume pdf locally in the browser and no data gets sent to any server. https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/moodwell-moody-tracker-diary/id1443436795 https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/moodwell-moody-tracker-diary/i... https://resumetopdf.com/ https://resumetopdf.com/ https://resumetopdf.com/privacypolicy.html https://resumetopdf.com/privacypolicy.html
- tyingq 5y ago
  Direct link to the transcript: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998?_pjax=main https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998?_pjax=main
csdvrx 5y ago
I have been worried about health-related data that can be exfiltrated by smart devices such as scales, watches (...) so I simply refuse to use any app that's not opensource. There is a solution for some (ex: my Xiaomi bluetooth scale) but not others. However, should I install even one such app, I do not trust it will avoid listening to the BLE broadcast of data coming from other devices, and send it home. Recently, this was a problem on the Wyze Watch which includes among other things a period tracker. I ended up replacing it by a Garmin eSports Watch: while the Wyze is a wonderful device (oh boy do I miss the puse oxymeter for O2 saturation...), it requires an app on the phone: if you uninstall it, the Wyze will work for a while... until it accumulates too much data. After that, it presents various symptoms (ex: unable to pair) that end up with the touchscreen not working after a few month. The Garmin can apparently be run autonomously and doesn't seem to have this problem (so far!) that seems to be cause by a lack of rollover/delete. If it works as it should, with no app, I will replace it after a few months by a more advanced model like the Forerunner 945 that includes a pulse oximeter. If it can't delete data on its own (without any phone pairing), I will look for another device that can work without a phone. In any case, I will not let my health-related data be exfiltrated, even for something as innocent as a bluetooth toothbrush. This article seems to support my almost luddite approach!
- tata71 5y ago
  Between this, and Peloton and eBay doing portscans of your network, anyone who made fun of people for tech paranoia should be feeling pretty ashamed of themselves right about now for what we've allowed to become commonplace, while simultaneously acknowledging it's only enabled by society ghosting its responsibility to learn tech.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    I can't remember exactly which smart device it was, but I think it was my Wyze Watch that asked for wayyyyyy too much information during setup. Like, dear watch, how's my sex, birthday, size and weight gonna help you do your job? I got you to 1) show the time 2) have alarms that I can set without using the phone, like in bed 3) monitor my sleep 4) check my heartrate and saturation when I exercise. There's literally 0 reason to have my birthday, so I went by january 1st :) But it shouldn't even have been asked in the 1st place. > what we've allowed to become commonplace We should not allow it anymore. A smart device that insist on having an app on a phone to be usable won't get my $$$.
conor_f 5y ago
I always appreciate a discussion about surveillance capitalism as it's one of the roots of many, many world problems in today's world. This is such a disgusting, predatory invasion of privacy and it's as pervasive as portrayed in the podcast [1]. These companies should be hit with huge financial penalties and the full force of GDPR should be dropped on them, but I'm sure by now, the largest companies have found loopholes to share personal information that can be used to market to individuals without it being considered personally identifiable... One thing absent from the podcast however was an alternative. My partner on finding out about the data sale going on with period trackers (and having their mind poisoned with the concept of open source by me!) found Drip [2] which is an open source period tracker that's accurate, not exploitative, and not pink. [1] https://www.privacyinternational.org/long-read/3196/no-bodys-business-mine-how-menstruations-apps-are-sharing-your-data https://www.privacyinternational.org/long-read/3196/no-bodys... [2] https://bloodyhealth.gitlab.io/ https://bloodyhealth.gitlab.io/
- skummetmaelk 5y ago
  Banning targeted advertising is the only solution. Confine ads to known spaces you can visit and expect to be advertised to. You can still find new products, but the economic incentives behind surveillance capitalism are gone.
- MandieD 5y ago
  This should be the top comment - as a Baby Buddy enthusiast who isn’t interested in setting up a second child profile, I’m thrilled to find out about Drip!
zwkrt 5y ago
Hot take: all these body tracking apps do almost nothing to actually help you be healthy or improve your life, and the only reason that people feel a need to use them is because advertising has convinced them that it is “part of a healthy diet”. Whether or not they invade your privacy, they reduce your idea of your health to a set of numbers that are divorced from the actual reality of your life and your overall wellbeing. Just abstain!
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  That's not the case here, and it is probably prudent not to simply dismiss tracking apps if they are things you'd need/want to track anyway. While tracking your monthly cycle won't necessarily make you healthier, there are a number of ways it keeps you healthy and improves your life. This sort of tracking is one folks have been doing since well before we generally had internet: I was told back in middle school in the late 80s and early 90s, for example, that I should track it. Not everyone does it, but most of the folks that don't will do so if they are doing things like trying to get pregnant, know when their mood will change, or are having other issues. I'm pretty sure that menstruation issues are the real thing that lowers your overall wellbeing. I've experienced this very thing, and I've needed the dates when things have gone wrong... or simply when I have had to go to the hospital/doctors, since they always seem to ask when I first started my last period. Something on your phone simply makes it easier, especially since most folks take their phones into the bathroom with them from time to time. I just use a notetaking app, though, mostly due to privacy.
- drakonka 5y ago
  This is a very broad generalization that doesn't actually seem to be accurate. We know that there are benefits to tracking your blood pressure at home, for example[0]. In addition, and closer to the topic in the original link, there are simply concrete benefits (ie: birth control) to an app like Natural Cycles[1], which involves tracking your temperature and period in an app. I understand that for some people this type of additional option may be difficult to appreciate, especially if you're not a potential user. It requires a lot of discipline: taking your temp consistently and at just the right time. But for women who might not be interested in or respond well to hormonal birth control, it can be an invaluable tool. Even for normal period tracking apps: tracking one's period _can_ be useful. It can help to monitor fluctuations that would otherwise easily go unnoticed for longer than they need to. I've had friends who missed very early or late periods for months before they realized their schedule was off and that it might be something they should see a doctor about. In conclusion, this "all apps/tracking health data is useless" sentiment that gets thrown around so commonly does not really seem to be in touch with reality. [0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/how-to-monitor-and-lower-your-blood-pressure-at-home https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/how-to-monitor-a... [1] https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-allows-marketing-first-direct-consumer-app-contraceptive-use-prevent-pregnancy https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-allo...
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
This has been going on for a while. I sat in a meeting 20+ years ago at a data mining company where they proudly proclaimed that they could track women's cycles from purchase history. It doesn't take a dedicated app for this data to get out. All it takes is a 28 day autocorrelation to find the signal.
- wheelinsupial 5y ago
  [1] has an HN discussion from 2012 on “How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did” [2] is the non-paywalled NYT article being discussed and linked to in the thread. It starts: “Andrew Pole had just started working as a statistician for Target in 2002, when two colleagues from the marketing department stopped by his desk to ask an odd question: ‘If we wanted to figure out if a customer is pregnant, even if she didn’t want us to know, can you do that?’” [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3601354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3601354 [2] https://archive.md/Ou4mB https://archive.md/Ou4mB
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    I remember that one. Marketing as a profession really seems to attract sociopaths. I'm not sure the people who enable them are much better.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      In my book the enablers are worse. Without them the sociopaths wouldn't be able to do much of anything. Bad ideas abound, execution capability is - rightly - rewarded when it works out positively, likewise it should be punished when used in a negative way.
MandieD 5y ago
Validates my decision to self-host and donate to Baby Buddy: https://github.com/babybuddy/babybuddy https://github.com/babybuddy/babybuddy I figured all those “free” (and possibly even the paid) baby apps were likely doing all sorts of shady things with that data. One thing for me to use a period/fertility tracker for myself - quite another to throw my child’s data up to god knows who for god knows what ends long before he could possibly consent. If you don’t know why it matters how many diapers there have been in the last 24 hours and what kind of mess was in there, along with how often and how much milk was consumed, you’ve obviously not been the primary caretaker of an infant recently. If you don’t know why you’d want an app for that, ditto - “mommy brain” is real. Pro-tip: set up and test your Baby Buddy instance well before your due date - including having your partner try using it on their device.
- 64bittechie 5y ago
  Maybe there is a market for paid apps and services that do not sell your data?
  - cdubzzz 5y ago
    See my comment in another thread[0]. It doesn’t necessarily add much but my gut says probably not. Or if there is I would bet it’s just as or more niche than parents who would self-host their own app. But maybe I’m understanding the extent to which becoming a parent makes people think more about privacy as a priority? Definitely curious to know if anyone has done any real research on this generally — that is, whether there is a real market for the “privacy focused” version of any product that would have other cheaper, less privacy focused options. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29993024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29993024
- fartcannon 5y ago
  I also used baby buddy and it was great.
- citiguy 5y ago
  I created a simple spreadsheet that we printed out / filled out each week. It worked great. No need for an app.
enjoyyourlife 5y ago
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998
- ta988 5y ago
  Thanks!
andrewjl 5y ago
One solution to this is legally enforceable, personal ownership of ones data. Distributed machine learning makes it possible to proffer data for insights without necessarily sharing it off-device. And unlocking some functionality in exchange. I'm sure more elaborate patterns of exchanges are possible. Is anyone working on this?
- nicbou 5y ago
  The GDPR does this, but it's pretty ineffective. I'm tracked just as much as before, but now they tell me first. Opting out is difficult at best, and often simply impossible.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    That's because of a lack of meaningful enforcement. Most dark patterns and annoyances we associated to the GDPR are illegal but until the law is enforced with the "4% of global revenue fines" nothing will change.
  - andrewjl 5y ago
    GDPR still makes transferring data off of ones device necessary. It relies on post-hoc enforcement. A good first step toward data ownership for sure, but can we do better?
petard 5y ago
I wrote BabyMeals (https://baby-meals.github.io/ https://baby-meals.github.io/) exactly for that reason. The amount of ad tracking and ad spam in female health apps (period trackers, child feeding) is staggering.
theshrike79 5y ago
Apple Health has period tracking, and they don't share the data with anyone without your permission.
- shrikemedown 5y ago
  Well, hopefully not anymore at least https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...
guilhas 5y ago
Privacy is very important, but the problem with self hosted apps, which I mostly try to use, is that people will not be able to take conclusions from the aggregated data Because on the plus side this apps can help detect health issues on the population, in certain areas or on people taking certain drugs Covid vaccines linked to 'disrupted menstrual cycles in young women' https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/covid-vaccines-linked-disrupted-menstrual-cycles-young-women/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-diseas... https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-covid-vaccine-might-impact-040016402.html https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-covid-vaccine-might-im... This discussions applies to using most free online services/apps, strange we don't see this discussion more often
blub 5y ago
I basically do not use apps any more except the few that I either personally vet or must otherwise use. GDPR helps, but is by far not a panacea, since there are so many offenders. One case that stuck into my mind was that of a friend which used an app by a German company which advertised the fact that they were keeping data on-device and not doing any analysis. One day after an update the app was blocked by a full-screen dialog presenting new terms of service claiming that data had to be synced to the cloud. There was only an accept button and no way to opt out or export the data. The only company that I'd trust now with this kind of data is Apple. And even there and in spite of all the security and privacy measures they have in place, I would be wary of syncing to the cloud.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gpmcadam 5y ago
"NPR’s sites use cookies, similar tracking and storage technologies, and information about the device you use to access our sites (together, “cookies”) to enhance your viewing, listening and user experience, personalize content, personalize messages from NPR’s sponsors, provide social media features, and analyze NPR’s traffic. This information is shared with social media, sponsorship, analytics, and other vendors or service providers" By the way, there is no 'reject' option for npr.org, just 'Agree and Continue'. I'm not sure whether there's a difference between this and what they're reporting on, but I wasn't willing to accept to find out.
- vegetablepotpie 5y ago
  If you’re worried about cookies, you could open the page in a private browsing mode. Cookies will not be saved between browsing sessions regardless of what you agree to.
  - wgj 5y ago
    Though some news sites detect private mode and block the article. NYT for example.
  - belorn 5y ago
    No one is worried about cookies, as they are just one and zeros on a computer. It is the personal information being shared with sponsors, social media, analytics, and other vendors or what ever they feel is offering them enough money. The reason we are in this privacy hell is the confusion between technology, ie cookies, and personal information, ie sensitive information about people and their lives that get traded like commodity goods. It is how technology is used that matters.
  - Tarq0n 5y ago
    The cookie is just an implementation detail. Agreeing to the terms of the average cookie wall will let the website in question capture your IP address and browser fingerprint and then sell on that information for combination with other data sources.
  - dspillett 5y ago
tharne 5y ago
Or you could just use a pen and a piece of paper.
Buttons840 5y ago
It would help if Android / iOS made network access a permission that can be turned off. The very thought leaves them shaking in their boots though. It should be made clear to users which apps are using the network connection.

172 points by ta988 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

truthwhisperer 5y ago

Syonyk 5y ago

Is there a transcript? Not a fan of audio or video forms of information, far easier to read. However, no surprise. Literally every app anymore ought to be considered from the perspective of, "What can this app possibly get from my phone, by technical standards, regardless of what I think of that?" It's got accelerometer data and gyro data? It's doing something nasty with it. It's got location data? Oh, baby, hope it's precise! Contact list data? Call data? Wifi network data? Bluetooth data? Yeah, all of that going upstream for those juicy revenue streams on the backend. I mean, RobinHood is literally doing nothing but selling order streams to high frequency trading companies to front-run the transactions people are making "for free." There is no such thing as an app anymore that works in your interest, as a guiding first order principle. > Their rebuttal to all this surveillance, of the commodification of our behaviors as users is simple: personal empowerment and regulation. Oh. Well then. Maybe they'd be so kind as to offer a pony to go with "personal empowerment," and perhaps some recommendations or written regulation that might go with the second?

tzs 5y ago
The icon on the far right on the same line as the play button shows the transcript.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  Greatly appreciated, thanks! > E TOGNI: Since I've started using Flo, every time my period is late, even just by one day, I receive ads on Facebook, Google and YouTube about pregnancy tests all the time. And then if I'm late for more than one day, I receive other ads about family planning, how to have a healthy baby. And, you know, a lot of products are just advertised to me constantly. I'm bombarded with this. And this happens every month for the past six years (laughter). AGGGH. That's not "funny, cute, lulz." That's "Remove from phone and never look back!" I'm glad to see surveillance capitalism in the general discussion, but, man, it's depressing just how much it's taken over literally everything in the past decade.
seba_dos1 5y ago
> There is no such thing as an app anymore that works in your interest, as a guiding first order principle. There's Free Software.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  If you have Android, there's an app for that: https://www.f-droid.org/ https://www.f-droid.org/.
- leppr 5y ago
  Android users have F-droid. It has been my first destination for a while when I need an utility app. Many (relatively) expensive paid apps are also fully pro-user.
  - rogual 5y ago
    I wonder if it would be feasible to have some sort of trademarked "Pro-User" badge, and an organization which vets apps and licenses the trademark to them? I know such things exist for "cruelty-free" (i.e. no animal testing) -- why not for "MBA tech bullshit free?"
    - leppr 5y ago
      I like Steam's implementation they call curators[1]. Any marketplace can implement a similar system, and you could have a curator list for any kind of criterion. [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/curators/topcurators/ https://store.steampowered.com/curators/topcurators/
  - mook 5y ago
    Unfortunately I couldn't spot a good period tracking app on F-Droid (or other open source ones on GitHub); something pretty with a decent estimate when the next one would be would be nice. Does anybody have recommendations?
    - seba_dos1 5y ago
ginko 5y ago
> Is there a transcript? Not a fan of audio or video forms of information, far easier to read. If you're in the EU it'll show you a GDPR choice then refer you to the text-only article if you decline: https://text.npr.org/1068930998 https://text.npr.org/1068930998 (have to say, of all the news sources NPR handles this the best)
feanaro 5y ago
For phone apps, you may like https://trackercontrol.org/ https://trackercontrol.org/. It's mostly set and forget and blocks 99% of tracking by default in my experience.
- vermilingua 5y ago
  Trackers are a tiny part of the problem, most nefarious data collection isn’t some third party ad network (in apps), but is intrinsically bound to the core functionality of the product. It’s impossible to block the data collection when the data collection is the service.
  - feanaro 5y ago
    From my experience, this is a problem only with the largest and most popular of apps, the kinds that are made by surveillance companies such as Google and Facebook. And even those usually use dedicated domains for tracking. So while not perfect, I think Tracker Control works exceedingly well in practice. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good and all that.
busymom0 5y ago
> There is no such thing as an app anymore that works in your interest, as a guiding first order principle. Hey there’s still a few of us left. I am the developer of mood tracker MoodWell, a similar genre apps as this post. Users input a ton of their private data in the app- from their mood and emotions data to what activities they are doing, notes, photos, weather etc. to track their mental health and how it’s affected by different activities, weather etc. This is very personal data and that’s why my app keeps all this data locally. Only if they use iCloud sync between multiple devices, then it goes to Apple iCloud server. But none of that ever gets sent to me and I have no control or access over their data. I have similar reputation about privacy for my other apps including my hacker news client app HACK, school timetable app, resume builder website etc. my resume builder website even builds the resume pdf locally in the browser and no data gets sent to any server. https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/moodwell-moody-tracker-diary/id1443436795 https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/moodwell-moody-tracker-diary/i... https://resumetopdf.com/ https://resumetopdf.com/ https://resumetopdf.com/privacypolicy.html https://resumetopdf.com/privacypolicy.html
tyingq 5y ago
Direct link to the transcript: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998?_pjax=main https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998?_pjax=main

csdvrx 5y ago

I have been worried about health-related data that can be exfiltrated by smart devices such as scales, watches (...) so I simply refuse to use any app that's not opensource. There is a solution for some (ex: my Xiaomi bluetooth scale) but not others. However, should I install even one such app, I do not trust it will avoid listening to the BLE broadcast of data coming from other devices, and send it home. Recently, this was a problem on the Wyze Watch which includes among other things a period tracker. I ended up replacing it by a Garmin eSports Watch: while the Wyze is a wonderful device (oh boy do I miss the puse oxymeter for O2 saturation...), it requires an app on the phone: if you uninstall it, the Wyze will work for a while... until it accumulates too much data. After that, it presents various symptoms (ex: unable to pair) that end up with the touchscreen not working after a few month. The Garmin can apparently be run autonomously and doesn't seem to have this problem (so far!) that seems to be cause by a lack of rollover/delete. If it works as it should, with no app, I will replace it after a few months by a more advanced model like the Forerunner 945 that includes a pulse oximeter. If it can't delete data on its own (without any phone pairing), I will look for another device that can work without a phone. In any case, I will not let my health-related data be exfiltrated, even for something as innocent as a bluetooth toothbrush. This article seems to support my almost luddite approach!

tata71 5y ago
Between this, and Peloton and eBay doing portscans of your network, anyone who made fun of people for tech paranoia should be feeling pretty ashamed of themselves right about now for what we've allowed to become commonplace, while simultaneously acknowledging it's only enabled by society ghosting its responsibility to learn tech.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  I can't remember exactly which smart device it was, but I think it was my Wyze Watch that asked for wayyyyyy too much information during setup. Like, dear watch, how's my sex, birthday, size and weight gonna help you do your job? I got you to 1) show the time 2) have alarms that I can set without using the phone, like in bed 3) monitor my sleep 4) check my heartrate and saturation when I exercise. There's literally 0 reason to have my birthday, so I went by january 1st :) But it shouldn't even have been asked in the 1st place. > what we've allowed to become commonplace We should not allow it anymore. A smart device that insist on having an app on a phone to be usable won't get my $$$.

conor_f 5y ago

I always appreciate a discussion about surveillance capitalism as it's one of the roots of many, many world problems in today's world. This is such a disgusting, predatory invasion of privacy and it's as pervasive as portrayed in the podcast [1]. These companies should be hit with huge financial penalties and the full force of GDPR should be dropped on them, but I'm sure by now, the largest companies have found loopholes to share personal information that can be used to market to individuals without it being considered personally identifiable... One thing absent from the podcast however was an alternative. My partner on finding out about the data sale going on with period trackers (and having their mind poisoned with the concept of open source by me!) found Drip [2] which is an open source period tracker that's accurate, not exploitative, and not pink. [1] https://www.privacyinternational.org/long-read/3196/no-bodys-business-mine-how-menstruations-apps-are-sharing-your-data https://www.privacyinternational.org/long-read/3196/no-bodys... [2] https://bloodyhealth.gitlab.io/ https://bloodyhealth.gitlab.io/

skummetmaelk 5y ago
Banning targeted advertising is the only solution. Confine ads to known spaces you can visit and expect to be advertised to. You can still find new products, but the economic incentives behind surveillance capitalism are gone.
MandieD 5y ago
This should be the top comment - as a Baby Buddy enthusiast who isn’t interested in setting up a second child profile, I’m thrilled to find out about Drip!

zwkrt 5y ago

Hot take: all these body tracking apps do almost nothing to actually help you be healthy or improve your life, and the only reason that people feel a need to use them is because advertising has convinced them that it is “part of a healthy diet”. Whether or not they invade your privacy, they reduce your idea of your health to a set of numbers that are divorced from the actual reality of your life and your overall wellbeing. Just abstain!

Broken_Hippo 5y ago
That's not the case here, and it is probably prudent not to simply dismiss tracking apps if they are things you'd need/want to track anyway. While tracking your monthly cycle won't necessarily make you healthier, there are a number of ways it keeps you healthy and improves your life. This sort of tracking is one folks have been doing since well before we generally had internet: I was told back in middle school in the late 80s and early 90s, for example, that I should track it. Not everyone does it, but most of the folks that don't will do so if they are doing things like trying to get pregnant, know when their mood will change, or are having other issues. I'm pretty sure that menstruation issues are the real thing that lowers your overall wellbeing. I've experienced this very thing, and I've needed the dates when things have gone wrong... or simply when I have had to go to the hospital/doctors, since they always seem to ask when I first started my last period. Something on your phone simply makes it easier, especially since most folks take their phones into the bathroom with them from time to time. I just use a notetaking app, though, mostly due to privacy.
drakonka 5y ago
This is a very broad generalization that doesn't actually seem to be accurate. We know that there are benefits to tracking your blood pressure at home, for example[0]. In addition, and closer to the topic in the original link, there are simply concrete benefits (ie: birth control) to an app like Natural Cycles[1], which involves tracking your temperature and period in an app. I understand that for some people this type of additional option may be difficult to appreciate, especially if you're not a potential user. It requires a lot of discipline: taking your temp consistently and at just the right time. But for women who might not be interested in or respond well to hormonal birth control, it can be an invaluable tool. Even for normal period tracking apps: tracking one's period _can_ be useful. It can help to monitor fluctuations that would otherwise easily go unnoticed for longer than they need to. I've had friends who missed very early or late periods for months before they realized their schedule was off and that it might be something they should see a doctor about. In conclusion, this "all apps/tracking health data is useless" sentiment that gets thrown around so commonly does not really seem to be in touch with reality. [0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/how-to-monitor-and-lower-your-blood-pressure-at-home https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/how-to-monitor-a... [1] https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-allows-marketing-first-direct-consumer-app-contraceptive-use-prevent-pregnancy https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-allo...

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

This has been going on for a while. I sat in a meeting 20+ years ago at a data mining company where they proudly proclaimed that they could track women's cycles from purchase history. It doesn't take a dedicated app for this data to get out. All it takes is a 28 day autocorrelation to find the signal.

wheelinsupial 5y ago
[1] has an HN discussion from 2012 on “How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did” [2] is the non-paywalled NYT article being discussed and linked to in the thread. It starts: “Andrew Pole had just started working as a statistician for Target in 2002, when two colleagues from the marketing department stopped by his desk to ask an odd question: ‘If we wanted to figure out if a customer is pregnant, even if she didn’t want us to know, can you do that?’” [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3601354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3601354 [2] https://archive.md/Ou4mB https://archive.md/Ou4mB
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  I remember that one. Marketing as a profession really seems to attract sociopaths. I'm not sure the people who enable them are much better.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    In my book the enablers are worse. Without them the sociopaths wouldn't be able to do much of anything. Bad ideas abound, execution capability is - rightly - rewarded when it works out positively, likewise it should be punished when used in a negative way.

MandieD 5y ago

Validates my decision to self-host and donate to Baby Buddy: https://github.com/babybuddy/babybuddy https://github.com/babybuddy/babybuddy I figured all those “free” (and possibly even the paid) baby apps were likely doing all sorts of shady things with that data. One thing for me to use a period/fertility tracker for myself - quite another to throw my child’s data up to god knows who for god knows what ends long before he could possibly consent. If you don’t know why it matters how many diapers there have been in the last 24 hours and what kind of mess was in there, along with how often and how much milk was consumed, you’ve obviously not been the primary caretaker of an infant recently. If you don’t know why you’d want an app for that, ditto - “mommy brain” is real. Pro-tip: set up and test your Baby Buddy instance well before your due date - including having your partner try using it on their device.

64bittechie 5y ago
Maybe there is a market for paid apps and services that do not sell your data?
- cdubzzz 5y ago
  See my comment in another thread[0]. It doesn’t necessarily add much but my gut says probably not. Or if there is I would bet it’s just as or more niche than parents who would self-host their own app. But maybe I’m understanding the extent to which becoming a parent makes people think more about privacy as a priority? Definitely curious to know if anyone has done any real research on this generally — that is, whether there is a real market for the “privacy focused” version of any product that would have other cheaper, less privacy focused options. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29993024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29993024
fartcannon 5y ago
I also used baby buddy and it was great.
citiguy 5y ago
I created a simple spreadsheet that we printed out / filled out each week. It worked great. No need for an app.

enjoyyourlife 5y ago

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1068930998

ta988 5y ago
Thanks!

andrewjl 5y ago

One solution to this is legally enforceable, personal ownership of ones data. Distributed machine learning makes it possible to proffer data for insights without necessarily sharing it off-device. And unlocking some functionality in exchange. I'm sure more elaborate patterns of exchanges are possible. Is anyone working on this?

nicbou 5y ago
The GDPR does this, but it's pretty ineffective. I'm tracked just as much as before, but now they tell me first. Opting out is difficult at best, and often simply impossible.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  That's because of a lack of meaningful enforcement. Most dark patterns and annoyances we associated to the GDPR are illegal but until the law is enforced with the "4% of global revenue fines" nothing will change.
- andrewjl 5y ago
  GDPR still makes transferring data off of ones device necessary. It relies on post-hoc enforcement. A good first step toward data ownership for sure, but can we do better?

petard 5y ago

I wrote BabyMeals (https://baby-meals.github.io/ https://baby-meals.github.io/) exactly for that reason. The amount of ad tracking and ad spam in female health apps (period trackers, child feeding) is staggering.

theshrike79 5y ago

Apple Health has period tracking, and they don't share the data with anyone without your permission.

shrikemedown 5y ago
Well, hopefully not anymore at least https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

guilhas 5y ago

Privacy is very important, but the problem with self hosted apps, which I mostly try to use, is that people will not be able to take conclusions from the aggregated data Because on the plus side this apps can help detect health issues on the population, in certain areas or on people taking certain drugs Covid vaccines linked to 'disrupted menstrual cycles in young women' https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/covid-vaccines-linked-disrupted-menstrual-cycles-young-women/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-diseas... https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-covid-vaccine-might-impact-040016402.html https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-covid-vaccine-might-im... This discussions applies to using most free online services/apps, strange we don't see this discussion more often

blub 5y ago

I basically do not use apps any more except the few that I either personally vet or must otherwise use. GDPR helps, but is by far not a panacea, since there are so many offenders. One case that stuck into my mind was that of a friend which used an app by a German company which advertised the fact that they were keeping data on-device and not doing any analysis. One day after an update the app was blocked by a full-screen dialog presenting new terms of service claiming that data had to be synced to the cloud. There was only an accept button and no way to opt out or export the data. The only company that I'd trust now with this kind of data is Apple. And even there and in spite of all the security and privacy measures they have in place, I would be wary of syncing to the cloud.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gpmcadam 5y ago

"NPR’s sites use cookies, similar tracking and storage technologies, and information about the device you use to access our sites (together, “cookies”) to enhance your viewing, listening and user experience, personalize content, personalize messages from NPR’s sponsors, provide social media features, and analyze NPR’s traffic. This information is shared with social media, sponsorship, analytics, and other vendors or service providers" By the way, there is no 'reject' option for npr.org, just 'Agree and Continue'. I'm not sure whether there's a difference between this and what they're reporting on, but I wasn't willing to accept to find out.

vegetablepotpie 5y ago
If you’re worried about cookies, you could open the page in a private browsing mode. Cookies will not be saved between browsing sessions regardless of what you agree to.
- wgj 5y ago
  Though some news sites detect private mode and block the article. NYT for example.
- belorn 5y ago
  No one is worried about cookies, as they are just one and zeros on a computer. It is the personal information being shared with sponsors, social media, analytics, and other vendors or what ever they feel is offering them enough money. The reason we are in this privacy hell is the confusion between technology, ie cookies, and personal information, ie sensitive information about people and their lives that get traded like commodity goods. It is how technology is used that matters.
- Tarq0n 5y ago
  The cookie is just an implementation detail. Agreeing to the terms of the average cookie wall will let the website in question capture your IP address and browser fingerprint and then sell on that information for combination with other data sources.
- dspillett 5y ago

tharne 5y ago

Or you could just use a pen and a piece of paper.

Buttons840 5y ago

It would help if Android / iOS made network access a permission that can be turned off. The very thought leaves them shaking in their boots though. It should be made clear to users which apps are using the network connection.