6 ms·

Deterrence is the stick sure, but the carrot is social programs to grow people out of the need to steal in the first place. Most people don't want to steal, bu

Deterrence is the stick sure, but the carrot is social programs to grow people out of the need to steal in the first place. Most people don't want to steal, but many more do because they feel they have to. You can't deter someone from putting food on their family's table, putting a roof over their head, or getting sound sleep.

mc32 5y ago
When I was young I knew people who stole (juvenile delinquents and some not so juvenile). Sometimes it was food sometimes it was other things. It was very rarely because they needed to. They were idle and did it because they could and would not get punished (back then cameras were not as prevalent.) Point is, more people steal because it's "easy" more than because they "have no alternative". People sometimes think just because they would only steal as a last resort just before death that other people treat theft with the same moral compass. No, they don't. Some people are plain opportunists.
- rdtsc 5y ago
  An easy way to verify is to see what is being stolen or looted. It is almost never produce, bags of beans or rice. It is often luxury brands, alcohol, electronics and stuff like that. I don’t think we need more mandatory sentences or stricter laws, but simply turning the other way and not punishing this kind of behavior is also going to backfire. There has to be a balance. I suspect it’s all designed to artificially reduce the crime stats (“if we don’t process or book them no crime was committed”) while at the same time getting extra points for social justice. Two birds with one stone.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > turning the other way and not punishing this kind of behavior Where do we have data that that is happening?
    - rdtsc 5y ago
      > Where do we have data that that is happening? It’s in the letter being discussed.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Of course people aren't stealing fucking bags of rice and beans. Why would they? Stealing a Louis Vitton bag selling it, then buying food, is far better in every way.
    - rdtsc 5y ago
      > Why would they? Because one idea is that they have to feed their children. It’s an urgent, desperate need. They are not doing it for fun, they don’t want to be criminals. Well, it is easy to explain stealing a bag of beans to a judge, and most of all, to the starving children at home, than justifying waiting for a train, cutting the lock, getting the luxury Louis Vuitton sunglasses, bringing them home, putting them up for sale on Craigslist and waiting for offers, so then, they can finally go to the store and buy the bag of beans. The story of feeding hungry kids doesn’t work as well in the later case.
      - Miner49er 5y ago
        People also need to pay rent and all kinds of other expenses. Not just eat.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        You're right, stealing the food directly is more immediate. But assuming you're planning ahead or are selling to a known buyer, the Vuitton bag is far better. Pragmatically - You have to steal fewer items with less security, so less risk of getting caught. It's lighter to move. You can use that money for clothing or rent. You can use that money to buy a lot more food. Meanwhile, it seems as trivial to justify to a judge. You needed food, so you stole something to get food. Certainly, I consider it to be at least as moral as stealing the food directly, so I don't understand why it would be harder to justify. Unless your contending that stealing beans is obviously for feeding kids, but stealing a bag isn't? That is, you're asking for leniency and not debating morals. In which case I would ask you if motive matters to a judge or if that means your kids are more likely to get taken away or can you not get the same effect by just keeping better records? Receipts of how your spent the bag money.
      - mc32 5y ago
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Those are not the people, by and large, ripping open cargo containers on moving trains. Some are, but your childhood friends aren't the people who are causing this letter to be sent. The people committing this level of crime do need the income this theft generates to survive.
  - joemazerino 5y ago
    What a pompous view of what is clearly criminal behaviour. If you don't do the time people will do the crime.
    - mc32 5y ago
      Amazingly, someone on ND had reviewed footage from their drone and saw it had someone pointing a firearm at the drone so alerted people to be cautious around the area. An SJW came out and was like, "is it legal for you to record in public?" They were not concerned about illegal firearm usage, no, their first thought was, were the "rights" of a criminal infringed (no, there is no right to privacy in a public space). Dogma and ideology are amazing.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      It's just easier and less risky to not commit crimes, the people who do commit crimes are almost always doing so as a result of some fundamental failure by society to give them tools to earn a living some other way. If you were in their situation, you'd do exactly as they would, you just had a better situation in your life. We owe it to them to give them that shot. I know it's easier to blame these people for their choices, but in a lot of cases, there never really was any other choice for them. "Just don't do crime" isn't really a choice you can make when nobody explains to you what else there is to do that gives you any real shot in this world. I'll repeat, because it's important: you'd do exactly the same thing these people have done, if you had their set of experiences.
      - mrhands556 5y ago
        It’s a sad fact of life there will always be injustices. People can still make good choices and have positive outcomes in bad environments. We need to stop trying to be devoid of personal responsibility as a society.
eschulz 5y ago
I'm convinced that none of the people who are stealing from trains in California lack food or a roof under which to sleep. However, I think they are overwhelmed with sights of the rich and glamorous while at the same time underwhelmed with their lives and future prospects. Too many people want to get rich quick, and that's most true in American cities. Trains with valuable cargo that is easy to carry become a sitting duck when they are stranded for a prolonged time in a US city.
rdtsc 5y ago
> Most people don't want to steal, but many more do because they feel they have to. That’s sort of the problem here. Different fundamental models of human motivation and behavior. I don’t really have an answer one way or another but I would disagree that most people who steal do it reluctantly and don’t enjoy it. Or, they do it to put food on the table. I have lived in places with pervasive crime. Some of my acquaintances growing up were in and out of jail over various things including including burglaries, assault, and all kinds of horrible things I would rather not mention. A good proportion of them enjoyed the rush and the excitement. I looked up a few videos of looting it’s almost never produce, food or clothing. But big screen TVs, electronics etc. There has to be balance between lock everyone up for small amounts of drug use and not referring even a single one of the 100+ arrested looters for prosecution and just saying they are so poor so they have to put food on the table, and train companies can afford it anyway.
mrhands556 5y ago
Kids in minneapolis are carjacking for joyrides.

mc32 5y ago

When I was young I knew people who stole (juvenile delinquents and some not so juvenile). Sometimes it was food sometimes it was other things. It was very rarely because they needed to. They were idle and did it because they could and would not get punished (back then cameras were not as prevalent.) Point is, more people steal because it's "easy" more than because they "have no alternative". People sometimes think just because they would only steal as a last resort just before death that other people treat theft with the same moral compass. No, they don't. Some people are plain opportunists.

rdtsc 5y ago
An easy way to verify is to see what is being stolen or looted. It is almost never produce, bags of beans or rice. It is often luxury brands, alcohol, electronics and stuff like that. I don’t think we need more mandatory sentences or stricter laws, but simply turning the other way and not punishing this kind of behavior is also going to backfire. There has to be a balance. I suspect it’s all designed to artificially reduce the crime stats (“if we don’t process or book them no crime was committed”) while at the same time getting extra points for social justice. Two birds with one stone.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > turning the other way and not punishing this kind of behavior Where do we have data that that is happening?
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    > Where do we have data that that is happening? It’s in the letter being discussed.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Of course people aren't stealing fucking bags of rice and beans. Why would they? Stealing a Louis Vitton bag selling it, then buying food, is far better in every way.
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    > Why would they? Because one idea is that they have to feed their children. It’s an urgent, desperate need. They are not doing it for fun, they don’t want to be criminals. Well, it is easy to explain stealing a bag of beans to a judge, and most of all, to the starving children at home, than justifying waiting for a train, cutting the lock, getting the luxury Louis Vuitton sunglasses, bringing them home, putting them up for sale on Craigslist and waiting for offers, so then, they can finally go to the store and buy the bag of beans. The story of feeding hungry kids doesn’t work as well in the later case.
    - Miner49er 5y ago
      People also need to pay rent and all kinds of other expenses. Not just eat.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      You're right, stealing the food directly is more immediate. But assuming you're planning ahead or are selling to a known buyer, the Vuitton bag is far better. Pragmatically - You have to steal fewer items with less security, so less risk of getting caught. It's lighter to move. You can use that money for clothing or rent. You can use that money to buy a lot more food. Meanwhile, it seems as trivial to justify to a judge. You needed food, so you stole something to get food. Certainly, I consider it to be at least as moral as stealing the food directly, so I don't understand why it would be harder to justify. Unless your contending that stealing beans is obviously for feeding kids, but stealing a bag isn't? That is, you're asking for leniency and not debating morals. In which case I would ask you if motive matters to a judge or if that means your kids are more likely to get taken away or can you not get the same effect by just keeping better records? Receipts of how your spent the bag money.
    - mc32 5y ago
TameAntelope 5y ago
Those are not the people, by and large, ripping open cargo containers on moving trains. Some are, but your childhood friends aren't the people who are causing this letter to be sent. The people committing this level of crime do need the income this theft generates to survive.
- joemazerino 5y ago
  What a pompous view of what is clearly criminal behaviour. If you don't do the time people will do the crime.
  - mc32 5y ago
    Amazingly, someone on ND had reviewed footage from their drone and saw it had someone pointing a firearm at the drone so alerted people to be cautious around the area. An SJW came out and was like, "is it legal for you to record in public?" They were not concerned about illegal firearm usage, no, their first thought was, were the "rights" of a criminal infringed (no, there is no right to privacy in a public space). Dogma and ideology are amazing.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    It's just easier and less risky to not commit crimes, the people who do commit crimes are almost always doing so as a result of some fundamental failure by society to give them tools to earn a living some other way. If you were in their situation, you'd do exactly as they would, you just had a better situation in your life. We owe it to them to give them that shot. I know it's easier to blame these people for their choices, but in a lot of cases, there never really was any other choice for them. "Just don't do crime" isn't really a choice you can make when nobody explains to you what else there is to do that gives you any real shot in this world. I'll repeat, because it's important: you'd do exactly the same thing these people have done, if you had their set of experiences.
    - mrhands556 5y ago
      It’s a sad fact of life there will always be injustices. People can still make good choices and have positive outcomes in bad environments. We need to stop trying to be devoid of personal responsibility as a society.

eschulz 5y ago

I'm convinced that none of the people who are stealing from trains in California lack food or a roof under which to sleep. However, I think they are overwhelmed with sights of the rich and glamorous while at the same time underwhelmed with their lives and future prospects. Too many people want to get rich quick, and that's most true in American cities. Trains with valuable cargo that is easy to carry become a sitting duck when they are stranded for a prolonged time in a US city.

rdtsc 5y ago

> Most people don't want to steal, but many more do because they feel they have to. That’s sort of the problem here. Different fundamental models of human motivation and behavior. I don’t really have an answer one way or another but I would disagree that most people who steal do it reluctantly and don’t enjoy it. Or, they do it to put food on the table. I have lived in places with pervasive crime. Some of my acquaintances growing up were in and out of jail over various things including including burglaries, assault, and all kinds of horrible things I would rather not mention. A good proportion of them enjoyed the rush and the excitement. I looked up a few videos of looting it’s almost never produce, food or clothing. But big screen TVs, electronics etc. There has to be balance between lock everyone up for small amounts of drug use and not referring even a single one of the 100+ arrested looters for prosecution and just saying they are so poor so they have to put food on the table, and train companies can afford it anyway.

mrhands556 5y ago

Kids in minneapolis are carjacking for joyrides.