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I wasn't suggesting any value judgement in my post, I'm not really anti-China or anti-Russia either or anything. But I think the notion that Israel is a Western

I wasn't suggesting any value judgement in my post, I'm not really anti-China or anti-Russia either or anything. But I think the notion that Israel is a Western country is largely owed due to geopolitical alliance, not culture or how its state operates. I think what does away with that illusion quickly is the fact that Israel has no civil marriage. In Israel, a Jew cannot marry a Muslim, or a Christian. In the US you can find me someone who is more right-wing than Genghis Khan and yet they probably would still find that surprising. Israel is cosmopolitan, in the way the UAE is, but it is not a secular Western state. It doesn't need to be because not being 'Western' doesn't imply being bad at all.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago
Yes and no, with the marriages. Marriages in foreign jurisdictions are recognized, so people just take the hop to Cyprus and marry there, if they need to. This is just a technicality, in practical terms. We are not a state that is governed by clergy, there is a free press and independent courts, there is a competitive political process, therefore your assertion that we are not a 'secular western state' isn't true either. It is not an exclusively secular state, like France; but other, more mixed models do exist, in practice.
- dsign 5y ago
  It's funny how we define "secular" by monogamous, pair marriage, which is a religious construct. By that metric, Israel is roughly as secular as Iran and USA.
- helge9210 5y ago
  > We are not a state that is governed by clergy This is not entirely true. Over the last twenty years it was no more then couple of years when ultra-orthodox weren't the part of the ruling coalition. And they were always very explicit about controlling citizenship, marriage, religion and finance.
  - weatherlight 5y ago
    SHAS have been the kingmakers in more than few elections.
- weatherlight 5y ago
  Sure, you can go to Cyprus. but what if an Israeli want to marry a person from the West Bank... will the state of Israel approve of that person from the West Bank to fly to Cyprus? Nope. Not a chance in hell. I've been to Israel a bunch of times. I've also been to Palestine and Lebanon. Israel isn't a "secular western state." For one, Israel does not have a written constitution, even though according to the Proclamation of Independence a constituent assembly should have prepared a constitution by October 1, 1948. That delay in the preparation of a constitution resulted primarily from problems that emerged against the background of the alleged clash between a secular constitution and the Halacha (the Jewish religious law). So even from a legal perspective, Israel can't decide whether it's a secular or religious state.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

Yes and no, with the marriages. Marriages in foreign jurisdictions are recognized, so people just take the hop to Cyprus and marry there, if they need to. This is just a technicality, in practical terms. We are not a state that is governed by clergy, there is a free press and independent courts, there is a competitive political process, therefore your assertion that we are not a 'secular western state' isn't true either. It is not an exclusively secular state, like France; but other, more mixed models do exist, in practice.

dsign 5y ago
It's funny how we define "secular" by monogamous, pair marriage, which is a religious construct. By that metric, Israel is roughly as secular as Iran and USA.
helge9210 5y ago
> We are not a state that is governed by clergy This is not entirely true. Over the last twenty years it was no more then couple of years when ultra-orthodox weren't the part of the ruling coalition. And they were always very explicit about controlling citizenship, marriage, religion and finance.
- weatherlight 5y ago
  SHAS have been the kingmakers in more than few elections.
weatherlight 5y ago
Sure, you can go to Cyprus. but what if an Israeli want to marry a person from the West Bank... will the state of Israel approve of that person from the West Bank to fly to Cyprus? Nope. Not a chance in hell. I've been to Israel a bunch of times. I've also been to Palestine and Lebanon. Israel isn't a "secular western state." For one, Israel does not have a written constitution, even though according to the Proclamation of Independence a constituent assembly should have prepared a constitution by October 1, 1948. That delay in the preparation of a constitution resulted primarily from problems that emerged against the background of the alleged clash between a secular constitution and the Halacha (the Jewish religious law). So even from a legal perspective, Israel can't decide whether it's a secular or religious state.