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Israel is its own nation and it isn't America's business what it does to its own citizens. However, their tools are used on American without warrants. It would

Israel is its own nation and it isn't America's business what it does to its own citizens. However, their tools are used on American without warrants. It would be in our interests as citizens to flag all employees of NSO as spies and try them.

cwkoss 5y ago
I wish America was the sort of nation that would sanction them for using draconian surveillance of their own citizens. Unfortunately Israel is effectively politically sanction-proof - even for much more abhorrent policies and actions.
- friendlydog 5y ago
  Israel is the 3rd largest recipient of US foreign aid receiving 3.2 Billion in US tax dollars in 2017 with only Iraq and Afghanistan receiving more. Reducing foreign aid while America is floundering would be a small step to the road of recovery.
  - Calvin02 5y ago
    First, putting aside Israel for a second. I understand the urge to reduce foreign aid while we're running deficits (I assume is what you mean by "floundering"), but think of foreign aid as diplomacy. We need both hard (military) and soft (aid, donations, etc.) diplomacy. If any thing, the bang for buck is higher with soft diplomacy. Hard diplomacy is very expensive. Second, Israel is a shining example of a robust democracy in a part of the world that is more or less run by kleptomaniacs and dictators. Israel's politics -- especially with the coalition government -- serves as a role model for citizens of other countries. I think it seems reasonable that we extend foreign aid to them. It pays off in the long run.
    - pthread_t 5y ago
      "a 2013 National Intelligence Estimate on cyber threats “ranked Israel the third most aggressive intelligence service against the US” behind only China and Russia" [1] "Israel among the U.S.’s most threatening cyber-adversaries and as a “hostile” foreign intelligence service." [2] "Israel’s snooping upset White House because information was used to lobby Congress to try to sink a deal" [3] [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-nsa-document-highlights-israeli-espionage-in-us/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-nsa-document-highlights-is... [2] https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial-directly-contradicted-secret-nsa-documents/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... [3] https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-spied-on-iran-talks-1427164201 https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-spied-on-iran-talks-1427...
      - Calvin02 5y ago
        I think it is probably fair to assume that every country (friend or a foe) spies on others. Just a few months ago, we were caught red handed spying on the EU and our closest allies [0]. I’m sure their equivalent of NSA lists us as the most aggressive hackers behind China and Russia. When your economy or your survival (in Israel’s case) is at stake and you have the tools, the temptation is just too strong. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-security-agency-spied-merkel-other-top-european-officials-through-danish-2021-05-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-security-agency-spie...
    - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
  - slg 5y ago
    That $3.2 billion works out to roughly 0.01% of the federal budget. Plus much of that money just comes right back to the US economy when it is used to purchase American military equipment. Israeli aid has nothing to do with why the US is "floundering". If anything, bickering over small potatoes like our foreign military aid budget instead of focusing on larger issues like the necessity of our own military budget likely is a bigger contributor to us "floundering".
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      That $3.2 billion would be enough to pay for 23,000 Americans' college education. Is that more valuable than giving weapons to Israel? Of course it is. Even a single college education is a better use of the money. The rhetorical tactic of citing some much larger number to justify a misuse of funds is meant to obfuscate and confuse, and it's not a good faith argument. It's like a mayor saying "yes, this program is wasteful and corrupt, but look at how big our military spending is! Why aren't you talking about that?!". Or "Yes, I may have created a made up job for my brother, but look at the trillions we spent in Afghanistan! Why aren't you talking about that?!" We should not be falling for that type of rhetoric when calling out government waste and abuse. There is no reason that the U.S. should be sending any aid to Israel (or, for that matter, Egypt), it's not a poor country, there are many more countries deserving of the aid, and the aid is being used to increase the militarization of a region that has already had too much military conflict.
      - slg 5y ago
        I pointed to a big number because it reveals that the motivation is neither to battle waste and corruption or to provide for those 23,000 Americans. There is obviously much bigger waste and corruption in the domestic military budget. You are singling out Israel because of a specific political complaint about Israel. You admit as much in your last paragraph. That is a perfectly reasonable political opinion to have and I'm not even arguing against it here. I am arguing against the hypocrisy of taking that political opinion and trying to make it more attractive by dishonestly claiming it is motivated by fighting waste, corruption, and the floundering of the US.
mandmandam 5y ago
You won't have to go as far as Israel to find horrific surveillance tools used on Americans ......
ForgotMyPwOops 5y ago
> Israel is its own nation and it isn't America's business what it does to its own citizens. I would argue that as long as Israel is lobbying the US to make it illegal for Americans to boycott Israel it is in fact our business https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws > The spread of anti-BDS laws in U.S. states is largely due to the lobbying of the Israel Allies Foundation (IAF), an umbrella group of Israel lobbies headquartered in Jerusalem that has received funding from the Israeli government
- yonixw 5y ago
  BDS != The only way to criticize Israel. Lobbing against BDS has a pretty simple cause... From the same page: > ... A dozen local and national parliaments have passed symbolic resolutions condemning BDS. Most of these condemnations have alleged that BDS is anti-Semitic. Austria, Canada, France, Germany, Spain...
  - ForgotMyPwOops 5y ago
    Do you believe boycotting is protected speech? Do you believe American citizens should be allowed to choose who they boycott?
    - yonixw 5y ago
      I do. But I don't if it's anti-Semitic. And that's the whole question. Seems like many agree it's the latter.
      - ForgotMyPwOops 5y ago
        Who decides what is antisemitic? It seems to me that based on your logic all speech can be prevented assuming some arbiter declares it antisemitic Boycotting can hardly be considered protected speech if that's all it takes to silence it
        5y ago
hidudeurcool 5y ago
Sharlin 5y ago
"Our"? HN is a global forum, we're not all Americans. Some of us are almost certainly even Israel citizens.
notsureaboutpg 5y ago
9tailedkitsune 5y ago
And yet the United States crucifies China and Russia for what it does to its own citizens. I think America will only get involved if it's not an ally.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
It's humanity's business. No human being should be subjected to this mass surveillance.

cwkoss 5y ago

I wish America was the sort of nation that would sanction them for using draconian surveillance of their own citizens. Unfortunately Israel is effectively politically sanction-proof - even for much more abhorrent policies and actions.

friendlydog 5y ago
Israel is the 3rd largest recipient of US foreign aid receiving 3.2 Billion in US tax dollars in 2017 with only Iraq and Afghanistan receiving more. Reducing foreign aid while America is floundering would be a small step to the road of recovery.
- Calvin02 5y ago
  First, putting aside Israel for a second. I understand the urge to reduce foreign aid while we're running deficits (I assume is what you mean by "floundering"), but think of foreign aid as diplomacy. We need both hard (military) and soft (aid, donations, etc.) diplomacy. If any thing, the bang for buck is higher with soft diplomacy. Hard diplomacy is very expensive. Second, Israel is a shining example of a robust democracy in a part of the world that is more or less run by kleptomaniacs and dictators. Israel's politics -- especially with the coalition government -- serves as a role model for citizens of other countries. I think it seems reasonable that we extend foreign aid to them. It pays off in the long run.
  - pthread_t 5y ago
    "a 2013 National Intelligence Estimate on cyber threats “ranked Israel the third most aggressive intelligence service against the US” behind only China and Russia" [1] "Israel among the U.S.’s most threatening cyber-adversaries and as a “hostile” foreign intelligence service." [2] "Israel’s snooping upset White House because information was used to lobby Congress to try to sink a deal" [3] [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-nsa-document-highlights-israeli-espionage-in-us/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-nsa-document-highlights-is... [2] https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial-directly-contradicted-secret-nsa-documents/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... [3] https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-spied-on-iran-talks-1427164201 https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-spied-on-iran-talks-1427...
    - Calvin02 5y ago
      I think it is probably fair to assume that every country (friend or a foe) spies on others. Just a few months ago, we were caught red handed spying on the EU and our closest allies [0]. I’m sure their equivalent of NSA lists us as the most aggressive hackers behind China and Russia. When your economy or your survival (in Israel’s case) is at stake and you have the tools, the temptation is just too strong. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-security-agency-spied-merkel-other-top-european-officials-through-danish-2021-05-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-security-agency-spie...
  - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
- slg 5y ago
  That $3.2 billion works out to roughly 0.01% of the federal budget. Plus much of that money just comes right back to the US economy when it is used to purchase American military equipment. Israeli aid has nothing to do with why the US is "floundering". If anything, bickering over small potatoes like our foreign military aid budget instead of focusing on larger issues like the necessity of our own military budget likely is a bigger contributor to us "floundering".
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    That $3.2 billion would be enough to pay for 23,000 Americans' college education. Is that more valuable than giving weapons to Israel? Of course it is. Even a single college education is a better use of the money. The rhetorical tactic of citing some much larger number to justify a misuse of funds is meant to obfuscate and confuse, and it's not a good faith argument. It's like a mayor saying "yes, this program is wasteful and corrupt, but look at how big our military spending is! Why aren't you talking about that?!". Or "Yes, I may have created a made up job for my brother, but look at the trillions we spent in Afghanistan! Why aren't you talking about that?!" We should not be falling for that type of rhetoric when calling out government waste and abuse. There is no reason that the U.S. should be sending any aid to Israel (or, for that matter, Egypt), it's not a poor country, there are many more countries deserving of the aid, and the aid is being used to increase the militarization of a region that has already had too much military conflict.
    - slg 5y ago
      I pointed to a big number because it reveals that the motivation is neither to battle waste and corruption or to provide for those 23,000 Americans. There is obviously much bigger waste and corruption in the domestic military budget. You are singling out Israel because of a specific political complaint about Israel. You admit as much in your last paragraph. That is a perfectly reasonable political opinion to have and I'm not even arguing against it here. I am arguing against the hypocrisy of taking that political opinion and trying to make it more attractive by dishonestly claiming it is motivated by fighting waste, corruption, and the floundering of the US.

mandmandam 5y ago

You won't have to go as far as Israel to find horrific surveillance tools used on Americans ......

ForgotMyPwOops 5y ago

> Israel is its own nation and it isn't America's business what it does to its own citizens. I would argue that as long as Israel is lobbying the US to make it illegal for Americans to boycott Israel it is in fact our business https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws > The spread of anti-BDS laws in U.S. states is largely due to the lobbying of the Israel Allies Foundation (IAF), an umbrella group of Israel lobbies headquartered in Jerusalem that has received funding from the Israeli government

yonixw 5y ago
BDS != The only way to criticize Israel. Lobbing against BDS has a pretty simple cause... From the same page: > ... A dozen local and national parliaments have passed symbolic resolutions condemning BDS. Most of these condemnations have alleged that BDS is anti-Semitic. Austria, Canada, France, Germany, Spain...
- ForgotMyPwOops 5y ago
  Do you believe boycotting is protected speech? Do you believe American citizens should be allowed to choose who they boycott?
  - yonixw 5y ago
    I do. But I don't if it's anti-Semitic. And that's the whole question. Seems like many agree it's the latter.
    - ForgotMyPwOops 5y ago
      Who decides what is antisemitic? It seems to me that based on your logic all speech can be prevented assuming some arbiter declares it antisemitic Boycotting can hardly be considered protected speech if that's all it takes to silence it
      - 5y ago

hidudeurcool 5y ago

Sharlin 5y ago

"Our"? HN is a global forum, we're not all Americans. Some of us are almost certainly even Israel citizens.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago

9tailedkitsune 5y ago

And yet the United States crucifies China and Russia for what it does to its own citizens. I think America will only get involved if it's not an ally.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

It's humanity's business. No human being should be subjected to this mass surveillance.