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This is ignoring some minor details, like that Israel had to fight some real frigging wars over its bare existence, and is still facing a regional power that ca

This is ignoring some minor details, like that Israel had to fight some real frigging wars over its bare existence, and is still facing a regional power that calls for its extinction. Looks like Israel isn't getting too much love, at least not here at HN. I maintain that we in Israel are still a very normal, western type society, if you take all these rather extreme circumstances into consideration (and, in addition, we are getting quite a lot of tech done ;-) )

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Starlevel001 5y ago
hunterb123 5y ago
If it's any consolation, these comments here do not reflect a general opinion and liberal leaning places seem to have this anti-Israel agenda, and it seems to be more prominent recently. Maybe I'm just paying more attention. That's not to say everything is perfect, no country is. But in perspective of everyone's actions in the region I support Israel overall. I don't want to get into a political flamewar, just wanted to offer my support. I disagree with the premise of many opinions here about Israel. Note that I'm not talking about people that are talking objectively about this specific event, I'm talking about the comments calling Israel an apartheid state, marriage, etc.
- hidudeurcool 5y ago
- FridayoLeary 5y ago
  Thank you.
- hkt 5y ago
  RE the apartheid point, this isn't western liberals, it is Israeli human rights organisations: https://www.btselem.org/apartheid https://www.btselem.org/apartheid
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    B’Tselem has a history of being unreliable and has an anti-Israel agenda. https://jcpa.org/article/btselem-less-reliability-credibility/ https://jcpa.org/article/btselem-less-reliability-credibilit... https://www.jpost.com/opinion/btselems-lies-468488 https://www.jpost.com/opinion/btselems-lies-468488 I didn't want to get into this like I said, but imo if the left focused more on scolding Palestine and less on Israel we'd be better off.
    - hkt 5y ago
      Do you have any international sources on this? I'm a little sceptical of the partisan angle of those posts and note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook. I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable, but highly politicised criticisms like those aren't really persuasive.
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        > Do you have any international sources on this? Sources on what? What did you disagree with? > I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable You linked an article from organization B'Tselem claiming Israel is an Apartheid state. I dont like the "angle of their post" to use your words. > note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook Yes, my that's my point. B'Tselem is a political organization, simply linking to their political rant is not helpful. Unless you want to debate out what you found so convincing that B'Tselem said that PROVES Israel is an "apartheid" state this conversation is going nowhere. I cannot prove a negative. You are insuating Israel is an apartheid state, it's a bold claim with no facts. You have to have concrete reasoning to assert so, I don't have to scrum up some "international sourced" articles to shoot down propaganda from B'Tselem.
IAmEveryone 5y ago
Your justification is fully compatible with the observed phenomenon as described. The comment didn’t criticize Israel, although the possible criticism so obviously follows from the description that your mind added it all by itself. That, in a way, is also quite telling. I’m not sure if the definition of democracy is flexible enough to include non-democracies as long as they bring a note to class giving a good reason. If Israel’s situation does really require essentially doing away with democratic norms, it’s somewhat delusional to still afford it that label, as a sort of temporarily-but-forever-slightly-embarrassed-democracy that protects its citizens’ rights as long as it’s convenient to do so. But I doubt that state is actually necessary. There has just been too much Austrian-style corruption in the last decade not to suspect some of that to be also in play here. Let’s wait and see how many politicians of the opposition were targeted in these programs. Because that would be the immediate end to any claims of justification. Edit: and just to be sure: nobody doubts that Israel is far better than the usual comparisons, i. e. its neighbors and China. It’s just because Israel is considered to be among “the good ones” that it gets criticized more readily. Both because the distance b/w expectations and reality is larger than elsewhere, and because criticism among peers is usually more effective than it is among strangers.
- sharikous 5y ago
  > It’s just because Israel is considered to be among “the good ones” that it gets criticized more readily ... or because "the good ones" have a guilt conscience with regards to Israel, especially the European ones. Nothing better than shaming your victims to wash your conscience.
  - IAmEveryone 5y ago
    “Europeans” is doing a lot of work in that sentence… Subjectively, criticism of Israel seems to be more widespread in the US and Britain than Germany? I don’t doubt the continuing existence here in Germany (and called it the “seedy underbelly” of local politics just a few hours ago right here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29977132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29977132). But my impression is that these are very distinct groups.
- 5y ago
Barrin92 5y ago
I wasn't suggesting any value judgement in my post, I'm not really anti-China or anti-Russia either or anything. But I think the notion that Israel is a Western country is largely owed due to geopolitical alliance, not culture or how its state operates. I think what does away with that illusion quickly is the fact that Israel has no civil marriage. In Israel, a Jew cannot marry a Muslim, or a Christian. In the US you can find me someone who is more right-wing than Genghis Khan and yet they probably would still find that surprising. Israel is cosmopolitan, in the way the UAE is, but it is not a secular Western state. It doesn't need to be because not being 'Western' doesn't imply being bad at all.
- MichaelMoser123 5y ago
  Yes and no, with the marriages. Marriages in foreign jurisdictions are recognized, so people just take the hop to Cyprus and marry there, if they need to. This is just a technicality, in practical terms. We are not a state that is governed by clergy, there is a free press and independent courts, there is a competitive political process, therefore your assertion that we are not a 'secular western state' isn't true either. It is not an exclusively secular state, like France; but other, more mixed models do exist, in practice.
  - dsign 5y ago
    It's funny how we define "secular" by monogamous, pair marriage, which is a religious construct. By that metric, Israel is roughly as secular as Iran and USA.
  - helge9210 5y ago
    > We are not a state that is governed by clergy This is not entirely true. Over the last twenty years it was no more then couple of years when ultra-orthodox weren't the part of the ruling coalition. And they were always very explicit about controlling citizenship, marriage, religion and finance.
    - weatherlight 5y ago
      SHAS have been the kingmakers in more than few elections.
emptyfile 5y ago
>I maintain that we in Israel are still a very normal, western type society, Wow that's an insane opinion. You're operating a city size ghetto and illegally annexing a part of another country. I guess in Israel that's normal!
- MichaelMoser123 5y ago
  Good to know, that there is a defining authority to tell us what is sane and what is not; well, almost...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Starlevel001 5y ago

hunterb123 5y ago

If it's any consolation, these comments here do not reflect a general opinion and liberal leaning places seem to have this anti-Israel agenda, and it seems to be more prominent recently. Maybe I'm just paying more attention. That's not to say everything is perfect, no country is. But in perspective of everyone's actions in the region I support Israel overall. I don't want to get into a political flamewar, just wanted to offer my support. I disagree with the premise of many opinions here about Israel. Note that I'm not talking about people that are talking objectively about this specific event, I'm talking about the comments calling Israel an apartheid state, marriage, etc.

hidudeurcool 5y ago
FridayoLeary 5y ago
Thank you.
hkt 5y ago
RE the apartheid point, this isn't western liberals, it is Israeli human rights organisations: https://www.btselem.org/apartheid https://www.btselem.org/apartheid
- hunterb123 5y ago
  B’Tselem has a history of being unreliable and has an anti-Israel agenda. https://jcpa.org/article/btselem-less-reliability-credibility/ https://jcpa.org/article/btselem-less-reliability-credibilit... https://www.jpost.com/opinion/btselems-lies-468488 https://www.jpost.com/opinion/btselems-lies-468488 I didn't want to get into this like I said, but imo if the left focused more on scolding Palestine and less on Israel we'd be better off.
  - hkt 5y ago
    Do you have any international sources on this? I'm a little sceptical of the partisan angle of those posts and note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook. I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable, but highly politicised criticisms like those aren't really persuasive.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      > Do you have any international sources on this? Sources on what? What did you disagree with? > I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable You linked an article from organization B'Tselem claiming Israel is an Apartheid state. I dont like the "angle of their post" to use your words. > note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook Yes, my that's my point. B'Tselem is a political organization, simply linking to their political rant is not helpful. Unless you want to debate out what you found so convincing that B'Tselem said that PROVES Israel is an "apartheid" state this conversation is going nowhere. I cannot prove a negative. You are insuating Israel is an apartheid state, it's a bold claim with no facts. You have to have concrete reasoning to assert so, I don't have to scrum up some "international sourced" articles to shoot down propaganda from B'Tselem.

IAmEveryone 5y ago

Your justification is fully compatible with the observed phenomenon as described. The comment didn’t criticize Israel, although the possible criticism so obviously follows from the description that your mind added it all by itself. That, in a way, is also quite telling. I’m not sure if the definition of democracy is flexible enough to include non-democracies as long as they bring a note to class giving a good reason. If Israel’s situation does really require essentially doing away with democratic norms, it’s somewhat delusional to still afford it that label, as a sort of temporarily-but-forever-slightly-embarrassed-democracy that protects its citizens’ rights as long as it’s convenient to do so. But I doubt that state is actually necessary. There has just been too much Austrian-style corruption in the last decade not to suspect some of that to be also in play here. Let’s wait and see how many politicians of the opposition were targeted in these programs. Because that would be the immediate end to any claims of justification. Edit: and just to be sure: nobody doubts that Israel is far better than the usual comparisons, i. e. its neighbors and China. It’s just because Israel is considered to be among “the good ones” that it gets criticized more readily. Both because the distance b/w expectations and reality is larger than elsewhere, and because criticism among peers is usually more effective than it is among strangers.

sharikous 5y ago
> It’s just because Israel is considered to be among “the good ones” that it gets criticized more readily ... or because "the good ones" have a guilt conscience with regards to Israel, especially the European ones. Nothing better than shaming your victims to wash your conscience.
- IAmEveryone 5y ago
  “Europeans” is doing a lot of work in that sentence… Subjectively, criticism of Israel seems to be more widespread in the US and Britain than Germany? I don’t doubt the continuing existence here in Germany (and called it the “seedy underbelly” of local politics just a few hours ago right here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29977132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29977132). But my impression is that these are very distinct groups.
5y ago

Barrin92 5y ago

I wasn't suggesting any value judgement in my post, I'm not really anti-China or anti-Russia either or anything. But I think the notion that Israel is a Western country is largely owed due to geopolitical alliance, not culture or how its state operates. I think what does away with that illusion quickly is the fact that Israel has no civil marriage. In Israel, a Jew cannot marry a Muslim, or a Christian. In the US you can find me someone who is more right-wing than Genghis Khan and yet they probably would still find that surprising. Israel is cosmopolitan, in the way the UAE is, but it is not a secular Western state. It doesn't need to be because not being 'Western' doesn't imply being bad at all.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago
Yes and no, with the marriages. Marriages in foreign jurisdictions are recognized, so people just take the hop to Cyprus and marry there, if they need to. This is just a technicality, in practical terms. We are not a state that is governed by clergy, there is a free press and independent courts, there is a competitive political process, therefore your assertion that we are not a 'secular western state' isn't true either. It is not an exclusively secular state, like France; but other, more mixed models do exist, in practice.
- dsign 5y ago
  It's funny how we define "secular" by monogamous, pair marriage, which is a religious construct. By that metric, Israel is roughly as secular as Iran and USA.
- helge9210 5y ago
  > We are not a state that is governed by clergy This is not entirely true. Over the last twenty years it was no more then couple of years when ultra-orthodox weren't the part of the ruling coalition. And they were always very explicit about controlling citizenship, marriage, religion and finance.
  - weatherlight 5y ago
    SHAS have been the kingmakers in more than few elections.

emptyfile 5y ago

>I maintain that we in Israel are still a very normal, western type society, Wow that's an insane opinion. You're operating a city size ghetto and illegally annexing a part of another country. I guess in Israel that's normal!

MichaelMoser123 5y ago
Good to know, that there is a defining authority to tell us what is sane and what is not; well, almost...