6 ms·

But isn't that just a roundabout way of describing whataboutism?

by efdee 5y ago

yonixw 5y ago
Whataboutism has its limits. When the far left, specifically Tankies, and left communities online, are literally being China apologists while calling Israel a genocide-apartheid-colonial country... you kind of know the logic fallacies are the other way around.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Can you point any fingers? I have not heard any of the positions you mention from any leftist place I frequent - not from Jacobin, not from leftist YouTube, not from any member of "the squad" or any other leftist member of Congress. Who exactly are you accusing of being anti-Israel but pro-China?
  - p1necone 5y ago
    I don't know who either but I suspect they're currently standing in a corn field with straw poking out from the ends of their sleeves ;).
    - yonixw 5y ago
      Found an example pretty quick.. Please go to [1] + [2] searches, while not a big channel on YouTube, ~200K subscribers in politics is kind of big for alternative-media with the top videos getting ~500K views. And now, please note that every video on China is something like "China is actually doing more for Climate-Change", or "Is China to Blame For Covid-19?" all suggesting China has so many good parts that we missed... While Israel search result are all about the conflict, ".. The [Media] BIAS", ".. The Death Toll". While Israel is dominant enough to deserve such critics. The Bias of the channel against Israel and Pro China is a spectacle to be hold. [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=china https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=china [2] https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=Israel https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=Israel So I will now go return the straw to the barn because I can't seem to find any strawman.
      - tsimionescu 5y ago
        There is some bias in their choice of covering Israel's crimes much more often than China's, but I don't see the China apologism. They have a more nuanced view on China's global warming actions than you often see, but that view is quite realistic. I have also found one article [0] covering China's appalling treatment of Uighurs - that is little coverage, but it at least proves that they are not entirely covering China's crimes. They also mention Mao's atrocities in another article [1], though more in passing. When you say "China apologism" I expect to see people praising China's "wonderful socialist state", talk about how free and happy the Chinese are, defend China's treatment of Uighurs (or deny it's happening) etc. Explaining that China, while being the top country by GHG total emissions, is not even in top 10 by per capita emissions is not China apologism - it is simply stating an uncomfortable fact. [0] https://novaramedia.com/2020/08/05/neither-washington-nor-beijing-the-left-must-stand-with-the-uighurs/ https://novaramedia.com/2020/08/05/neither-washington-nor-be... [1] https://novaramedia.com/2017/11/24/in-search-of-the-chinese-dream/ https://novaramedia.com/2017/11/24/in-search-of-the-chinese-...
        yonixw 5y ago
        Sure. Look no further. The co-founder [0], Aaron Bastani, has a lot to say about Israel (nothing less than onslaught ofcourse [1]) But according to some of his twitter, we get all that you wanted: * praising China's "wonderful socialist state" [2] (more like its totalaric structure) * how ... happy the Chinese are [3] * defend China's treatment of Uighurs [4] (downplay it a lot) And after I looked, that one article you gave ([0] in your comment) is the only time they say anything about it, no mentions on their youtube or twitter. Furthermore, in the opening statement of the article, they described what the Uighur experienced as ".. have long faced discrimination". Wow... such strong words for what happend [5]. Brave and not apologetic. --------- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novara_Media https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novara_Media [1] https://novaramedia.com/?s=Aaron+Bastani+Israel https://novaramedia.com/?s=Aaron+Bastani+Israel [2] https://mobile.twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1462805238969253892 https://mobile.twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1462805238969... [3] https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476873294338998284/photo/1 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476873294338998284/pho... [4] https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476874275223126021/photo/2 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476874275223126021/pho... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
- p1necone 5y ago
  That's just 'What about China', with a sprinkling of assuming that the entire left is one homogeneous group. (They're not, and most of the left makes fun of tankies too.)
  - yonixw 5y ago
    No, Because you can simply answer "China bad too, so back to you..". If you can't say it, welp, we got you, It's not the Israel government\policies you hate...
- jacobolus 5y ago
  It’s pretty absurd to declare that “tankies” (presumably meaning “Western European communist party members who explicitly supported the Soviet subjugation of Eastern Europe”) is co-extensive with “the far left”, when most of the left considered Soviet foreign policy abhorrent. Beyond that, here in the USA, I don’t know anyone who I would consider both a “China apologist” and a “leftist” (“far” or otherwise) – China has not been anything remotely resembling socialist for at least a generation, and the China apologists I know all vote GOP (or would if they could vote). Unless by “apologist” you just mean “has a low expectation that China’s political system is going to collapse or radically democratize in the near future, and thinks that some level of economic and diplomatic engagement is necessary despite China’s human rights record”.
  - p1necone 5y ago
    In modern parlance 'Tankie' is generally used to refer to people on the left who support authoritarian governments. (see second paragraph in definition section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie#Definition) So yeah basically the intersection of "left wing" and "thinks the Chinese government is great" (which as you point out is not a particularly large group of people, at least in the USA).
  - vkou 5y ago
    > Beyond that, here in the USA, I don’t know anyone who I would consider both a “China apologist” Depending on who you're talking to, the bar to become a "China apologist" is not very high.
maratc 5y ago
Any claim to fair and equal treatment can be dismissed with "whataboutism". "Why I [female/transgender/black/etc.] receive half of what that straight white dude gets?" — "That's whataboutism."
- efdee 5y ago
  Not really. That's a comparison. "Why do that woman receive half of what that straight white dude gets?" - "Why are you asking? Why aren't you asking about the black dude get only a quarter?" THAT is whataboutism. Implying you shouldn't make remarks (about a woman's wage, about Israel, ...) without also taking other cases (transgenders, blacks, China) into account is whataboutism: using a claim to fair and equal treatment as a way to avoid having to answer an isolated question.
  - maratc 5y ago
    In this case, I think it is reasonable to demand that a white guy, a black guy, and a female all receive same wages. But the situation where a black guy is hired by a rich and powerful boss, so nobody dares questioning his wages for the fear of his boss, and so everyone should pretend to only discuss an isolated question (woman's wages), is untenable. Selective application of a principle (or a law) to some, may be considered as a form of oppression, like in the US, when white guys caught with a small amount of marijuana get sent home, but black guys with the same amount get sent to prison; or in Russia, where the laws are extremely strict, but are rarely applied to rich or powerful or well-connected.

But isn't that just a roundabout way of describing whataboutism?

by efdee 5y ago

But isn't that just a roundabout way of describing whataboutism?

Whataboutism has its limits. When the far left, specifically Tankies, and left communities online, are literally being China apologists while calling Israel a genocide-apartheid-colonial country... you kind of know the logic fallacies are the other way around.

tsimionescu 5y ago
Can you point any fingers? I have not heard any of the positions you mention from any leftist place I frequent - not from Jacobin, not from leftist YouTube, not from any member of "the squad" or any other leftist member of Congress. Who exactly are you accusing of being anti-Israel but pro-China?
- p1necone 5y ago
  I don't know who either but I suspect they're currently standing in a corn field with straw poking out from the ends of their sleeves ;).
  - yonixw 5y ago
    Found an example pretty quick.. Please go to [1] + [2] searches, while not a big channel on YouTube, ~200K subscribers in politics is kind of big for alternative-media with the top videos getting ~500K views. And now, please note that every video on China is something like "China is actually doing more for Climate-Change", or "Is China to Blame For Covid-19?" all suggesting China has so many good parts that we missed... While Israel search result are all about the conflict, ".. The [Media] BIAS", ".. The Death Toll". While Israel is dominant enough to deserve such critics. The Bias of the channel against Israel and Pro China is a spectacle to be hold. [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=china https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=china [2] https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=Israel https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia/search?query=Israel So I will now go return the straw to the barn because I can't seem to find any strawman.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      There is some bias in their choice of covering Israel's crimes much more often than China's, but I don't see the China apologism. They have a more nuanced view on China's global warming actions than you often see, but that view is quite realistic. I have also found one article [0] covering China's appalling treatment of Uighurs - that is little coverage, but it at least proves that they are not entirely covering China's crimes. They also mention Mao's atrocities in another article [1], though more in passing. When you say "China apologism" I expect to see people praising China's "wonderful socialist state", talk about how free and happy the Chinese are, defend China's treatment of Uighurs (or deny it's happening) etc. Explaining that China, while being the top country by GHG total emissions, is not even in top 10 by per capita emissions is not China apologism - it is simply stating an uncomfortable fact. [0] https://novaramedia.com/2020/08/05/neither-washington-nor-beijing-the-left-must-stand-with-the-uighurs/ https://novaramedia.com/2020/08/05/neither-washington-nor-be... [1] https://novaramedia.com/2017/11/24/in-search-of-the-chinese-dream/ https://novaramedia.com/2017/11/24/in-search-of-the-chinese-...
      - yonixw 5y ago
        Sure. Look no further. The co-founder [0], Aaron Bastani, has a lot to say about Israel (nothing less than onslaught ofcourse [1]) But according to some of his twitter, we get all that you wanted: * praising China's "wonderful socialist state" [2] (more like its totalaric structure) * how ... happy the Chinese are [3] * defend China's treatment of Uighurs [4] (downplay it a lot) And after I looked, that one article you gave ([0] in your comment) is the only time they say anything about it, no mentions on their youtube or twitter. Furthermore, in the opening statement of the article, they described what the Uighur experienced as ".. have long faced discrimination". Wow... such strong words for what happend [5]. Brave and not apologetic. --------- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novara_Media https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novara_Media [1] https://novaramedia.com/?s=Aaron+Bastani+Israel https://novaramedia.com/?s=Aaron+Bastani+Israel [2] https://mobile.twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1462805238969253892 https://mobile.twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1462805238969... [3] https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476873294338998284/photo/1 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476873294338998284/pho... [4] https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476874275223126021/photo/2 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1476874275223126021/pho... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
p1necone 5y ago
That's just 'What about China', with a sprinkling of assuming that the entire left is one homogeneous group. (They're not, and most of the left makes fun of tankies too.)
- yonixw 5y ago
  No, Because you can simply answer "China bad too, so back to you..". If you can't say it, welp, we got you, It's not the Israel government\policies you hate...
jacobolus 5y ago
It’s pretty absurd to declare that “tankies” (presumably meaning “Western European communist party members who explicitly supported the Soviet subjugation of Eastern Europe”) is co-extensive with “the far left”, when most of the left considered Soviet foreign policy abhorrent. Beyond that, here in the USA, I don’t know anyone who I would consider both a “China apologist” and a “leftist” (“far” or otherwise) – China has not been anything remotely resembling socialist for at least a generation, and the China apologists I know all vote GOP (or would if they could vote). Unless by “apologist” you just mean “has a low expectation that China’s political system is going to collapse or radically democratize in the near future, and thinks that some level of economic and diplomatic engagement is necessary despite China’s human rights record”.
- p1necone 5y ago
  In modern parlance 'Tankie' is generally used to refer to people on the left who support authoritarian governments. (see second paragraph in definition section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie#Definition) So yeah basically the intersection of "left wing" and "thinks the Chinese government is great" (which as you point out is not a particularly large group of people, at least in the USA).
- vkou 5y ago
  > Beyond that, here in the USA, I don’t know anyone who I would consider both a “China apologist” Depending on who you're talking to, the bar to become a "China apologist" is not very high.

maratc 5y ago

Any claim to fair and equal treatment can be dismissed with "whataboutism". "Why I [female/transgender/black/etc.] receive half of what that straight white dude gets?" — "That's whataboutism."

efdee 5y ago
Not really. That's a comparison. "Why do that woman receive half of what that straight white dude gets?" - "Why are you asking? Why aren't you asking about the black dude get only a quarter?" THAT is whataboutism. Implying you shouldn't make remarks (about a woman's wage, about Israel, ...) without also taking other cases (transgenders, blacks, China) into account is whataboutism: using a claim to fair and equal treatment as a way to avoid having to answer an isolated question.
- maratc 5y ago
  In this case, I think it is reasonable to demand that a white guy, a black guy, and a female all receive same wages. But the situation where a black guy is hired by a rich and powerful boss, so nobody dares questioning his wages for the fear of his boss, and so everyone should pretend to only discuss an isolated question (woman's wages), is untenable. Selective application of a principle (or a law) to some, may be considered as a form of oppression, like in the US, when white guys caught with a small amount of marijuana get sent home, but black guys with the same amount get sent to prison; or in Russia, where the laws are extremely strict, but are rarely applied to rich or powerful or well-connected.