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It is expert defence against charges like this that will undo the whole nearly-but-not-quite autonomous driving industry. And rightly so. I am stunned the indu

It is expert defence against charges like this that will undo the whole nearly-but-not-quite autonomous driving industry. And rightly so. I am stunned the industry thinks effectively an [OK] click through is going to save them here. (And before anyone quotes million of miles per fatality stats, this is a legal question on a single case, generalities don't cleanly apply. Edit: I think Tesla and co. will need to show that it is reasonable to assume a driver can quickly notice and respond to a hazard particularly after being lulled into passivity for what could be hours by the drive system. Good luck.)

rich_sasha 5y ago
What are some analogous legal outcomes where companies got users to agree to take liability for the company’s product outcomes and it failed in court? In aviation, I’m pretty sure that so long as you can disable an autopilot, anything that happens is the human’s fault. Guns - nothing to do with the makers and everything to do with the shooter. I can’t think of any examples where it worked.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Most guns aren't self aiming and self firing.
- verytrivial 5y ago
  Well, in aviation, they do go to great lengths to let the pilot know which mode they're flying in and transition into and out of that mode has it's own protocol, training and feedback. Indeed the whole surepticious engagement of the MCAS system on the 787-MAX aircraft, and in particular not including updates for pilots in training to deal with what to do when that system fails -- i.e. awareness -- is probably going to end a few careers at Boeing. That seems to be an example very close to the Tesla situation. The AF447 crash in 2009 has a spookily similar pathology -- confusion about automated flight control modes. Both incidents were awareness of automation issues, one with it being on, one with it being off (more or less). Tesla is banking on a beep and/or input control shake covering them for mode change awareness for a completely novice, untrained and uncertified driver. Is that a reasonably assumption? Edit: There were other (tragic) factors in the AF447 crash, but in that case, if they'd re-enabled autopilot and let go of the controls, they would have very likely survived.
  - verytrivial 5y ago
    Post-edit-window-edit: I retract "re-enabled autopilot" - . There was whole procedure required if there were residual airspeed discrepencies on all three sensors. e.g. Autopilot would only help if at least two were non-iced. AF447 may have had zero. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/airbus-gives-new-warning-on-speed-sensors-1.949982 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/airbus-gives-new-warning-on-sp... http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=e78517ed-7eb7-4dd7-9a01-19ceaf24c918 http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=e7851...

rich_sasha 5y ago

What are some analogous legal outcomes where companies got users to agree to take liability for the company’s product outcomes and it failed in court? In aviation, I’m pretty sure that so long as you can disable an autopilot, anything that happens is the human’s fault. Guns - nothing to do with the makers and everything to do with the shooter. I can’t think of any examples where it worked.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
Most guns aren't self aiming and self firing.
verytrivial 5y ago
Well, in aviation, they do go to great lengths to let the pilot know which mode they're flying in and transition into and out of that mode has it's own protocol, training and feedback. Indeed the whole surepticious engagement of the MCAS system on the 787-MAX aircraft, and in particular not including updates for pilots in training to deal with what to do when that system fails -- i.e. awareness -- is probably going to end a few careers at Boeing. That seems to be an example very close to the Tesla situation. The AF447 crash in 2009 has a spookily similar pathology -- confusion about automated flight control modes. Both incidents were awareness of automation issues, one with it being on, one with it being off (more or less). Tesla is banking on a beep and/or input control shake covering them for mode change awareness for a completely novice, untrained and uncertified driver. Is that a reasonably assumption? Edit: There were other (tragic) factors in the AF447 crash, but in that case, if they'd re-enabled autopilot and let go of the controls, they would have very likely survived.
- verytrivial 5y ago
  Post-edit-window-edit: I retract "re-enabled autopilot" - . There was whole procedure required if there were residual airspeed discrepencies on all three sensors. e.g. Autopilot would only help if at least two were non-iced. AF447 may have had zero. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/airbus-gives-new-warning-on-speed-sensors-1.949982 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/airbus-gives-new-warning-on-sp... http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=e78517ed-7eb7-4dd7-9a01-19ceaf24c918 http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=e7851...