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I recall a story (maybe an urban myth) about Steve Jobs visiting Xerox's labs and seeing their UI in action and thinking "we've got to have that". He went back

by zizee 15y ago

I recall a story (maybe an urban myth) about Steve Jobs visiting Xerox's labs and seeing their UI in action and thinking "we've got to have that". He went back to tell Woz all about it, telling him that Xerox's UI supported overlapping windows and that Apple needed to do the same. Woz was amazed that it was possible to have overlapping windows on such a resource constrained machine. But if Xerox engineers could do it, he could to dammit! After a Herculean effort he got the overlapping windows to work nicely and they shipped. It was only later that they found out that Xerox's engineers were blown away by Woz's achievement as they had studied the problem and decided that it wouldn't be possible to do overlapping windows. They never developed that functionality. Turns out that Jobs had made a mistake in remembering what he had seen and Xerox never did have those overlapping windows :-) Anyway, this story might be incorrect on some points or a complete fabrication, but I like it.

krevis 15y ago
Not Woz, Bill Atkinson. http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=On_Xerox,_Apple_and_Progress.txt http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story... "Smalltalk didn't even have self-repairing windows - you had to click in them to get them to repaint, and programs couldn't draw into partially obscured windows. Bill Atkinson did not know this, so he invented regions as the basis of QuickDraw and the Window Manager so that he could quickly draw in covered windows and repaint portions of windows brought to the front."
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- zizee 15y ago
  Ah, excellent stuff. Thanks for the correction and digging that up.
- _sh 15y ago
  The 'regions' used in QuickDraw are an amazing (for their time) data structure, a testament to the genius of Bill Atkinson. I strongly recommend reading the patent to see how cool and useful they were to the original Mac windowing system (http://patentdetails.patenttools.com/patent/04622545?searchid=18718 http://patentdetails.patenttools.com/patent/04622545?searchi... click on the 'download pdf' link in the top left). Steve Jobs know how important regions were: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=I_Still_Remember_Regions.txt&topic=QuickDraw http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...
  - _sh 15y ago
    Obviously I meant 'Steve Jobs knew how important regions were'. In a semi-related matter, does anyone know of the algorithm Bill used to draw RoundRects 'blisteringly fast'? http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Round_Rects_Are_Everywhere.txt&topic=QuickDraw http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...
    - Robin_Message 15y ago
      I've been intending to write a blog post retrospective on the workings and algorithms of the quick draw library, but regions seemed too big a topic to start with. You've given me an idea though: I'll have have a go at RoundRects first and see if there is any interest.
angusgr 15y ago
It's a good story. According to the Apple stories I've read, Wozniak had little to no involvement with the creation of Macintosh. He was in a plane crash in 1981. When he came back to the company in 1983 he was mostly involved with the (increasingly sidelined) Apple II team. But overlapping windows first came to Apple with the Lisa, anyhow. Some of Bill Atkinson's photos here show them from December 1979 or early 1980. Story says Bill wasn't sure whether they predated Apple's Xerox visit, or not. http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Busy_Being_Born.txt http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Busy_Being_Born.t... Anyhow, it's a good story. If it has some basis in truth it might be with s/Woz/Atkinson/ (he was their UI/graphics guru programmer) and s/Macintosh/Lisa/. :)
- watmough 15y ago
  Indeed, and due to various miracles, the source for QuickDraw and MacPaint is at: http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/ http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/
Symmetry 15y ago
He didn't actually mis-remember, though. The Alto, the OS used internally at Sun had overlapping windows but Xerox Star, the version that they sold outside the company couldn't handle them. http://www.osnews.com/story/20365/pt_X_the_Window http://www.osnews.com/story/20365/pt_X_the_Window

by zizee 15y ago

krevis 15y ago

Not Woz, Bill Atkinson. http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=On_Xerox,_Apple_and_Progress.txt http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story... "Smalltalk didn't even have self-repairing windows - you had to click in them to get them to repaint, and programs couldn't draw into partially obscured windows. Bill Atkinson did not know this, so he invented regions as the basis of QuickDraw and the Window Manager so that he could quickly draw in covered windows and repaint portions of windows brought to the front."

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
zizee 15y ago
Ah, excellent stuff. Thanks for the correction and digging that up.
_sh 15y ago
The 'regions' used in QuickDraw are an amazing (for their time) data structure, a testament to the genius of Bill Atkinson. I strongly recommend reading the patent to see how cool and useful they were to the original Mac windowing system (http://patentdetails.patenttools.com/patent/04622545?searchid=18718 http://patentdetails.patenttools.com/patent/04622545?searchi... click on the 'download pdf' link in the top left). Steve Jobs know how important regions were: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=I_Still_Remember_Regions.txt&topic=QuickDraw http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...
- _sh 15y ago
  Obviously I meant 'Steve Jobs knew how important regions were'. In a semi-related matter, does anyone know of the algorithm Bill used to draw RoundRects 'blisteringly fast'? http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Round_Rects_Are_Everywhere.txt&topic=QuickDraw http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...
  - Robin_Message 15y ago
    I've been intending to write a blog post retrospective on the workings and algorithms of the quick draw library, but regions seemed too big a topic to start with. You've given me an idea though: I'll have have a go at RoundRects first and see if there is any interest.

angusgr 15y ago

It's a good story. According to the Apple stories I've read, Wozniak had little to no involvement with the creation of Macintosh. He was in a plane crash in 1981. When he came back to the company in 1983 he was mostly involved with the (increasingly sidelined) Apple II team. But overlapping windows first came to Apple with the Lisa, anyhow. Some of Bill Atkinson's photos here show them from December 1979 or early 1980. Story says Bill wasn't sure whether they predated Apple's Xerox visit, or not. http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Busy_Being_Born.txt http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Busy_Being_Born.t... Anyhow, it's a good story. If it has some basis in truth it might be with s/Woz/Atkinson/ (he was their UI/graphics guru programmer) and s/Macintosh/Lisa/. :)

watmough 15y ago
Indeed, and due to various miracles, the source for QuickDraw and MacPaint is at: http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/ http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/

Symmetry 15y ago

He didn't actually mis-remember, though. The Alto, the OS used internally at Sun had overlapping windows but Xerox Star, the version that they sold outside the company couldn't handle them. http://www.osnews.com/story/20365/pt_X_the_Window http://www.osnews.com/story/20365/pt_X_the_Window