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I think these "overdriven goals" might be the result of leaky abstraction. We are basically seeing an implementation detail come to light. As TFA points out, th

by kortex 5y ago

I think these "overdriven goals" might be the result of leaky abstraction. We are basically seeing an implementation detail come to light. As TFA points out, there is really just one reward-taxis algorithm. Everything drive-related is a variation on it. Meaning there is no "obtain visual appeal via body building until sufficiently attractive" algorithm. There is a top-level algorithm of "find mate and reproduce", which is enjoyable. How does it boost the odds? By doing things to be more attractive, for example. But how does one "know" one is on the right path? Activities which we learn increase attractiveness are enjoyable. There's a gradient we follow. More attractive = more enjoyable. So you end up with complex behaviors that basically become self-hoisting; the activity itself becomes the reward. Basically, games and hobbies. Something becomes enjoyable vis a vis various learned reward functions, so we just pursue the enjoyable thing. There's also a meta-loop wherein staying mentally stimulated and curious is itself a useful fitness, so we do things which are interesting, because it's enjoyable to do that.

snek_case 5y ago
I agree with your idea of leaky abstractions and overdriven goals. I think one thing to remember here is that while for sure attracting mates must play a role in the appeal of bodybuilding, there's also a competitive game aspect. You can compete against yourself and your peers. This can appeal to instinctive drives to compete and gain status, maybe again past the point where it's reasonable in some cases (are you really winning at life, gaining something meaningful by doing this?). If we just talk about the attracting mates aspect of bodybuilding, we also have to remember that if a man is trying to attract women by gaining muscle mass, his idea of what women in general might find attractive is just an approximation. Maybe this man found that he was gaining more attention from women when he started to gain muscle mass, so he just keeps doing more of that. Eventually he might gain even more attention for other reasons (improved self-confidence), but it gets hard to tease apart the real causal factors.

by kortex 5y ago

snek_case 5y ago

I agree with your idea of leaky abstractions and overdriven goals. I think one thing to remember here is that while for sure attracting mates must play a role in the appeal of bodybuilding, there's also a competitive game aspect. You can compete against yourself and your peers. This can appeal to instinctive drives to compete and gain status, maybe again past the point where it's reasonable in some cases (are you really winning at life, gaining something meaningful by doing this?). If we just talk about the attracting mates aspect of bodybuilding, we also have to remember that if a man is trying to attract women by gaining muscle mass, his idea of what women in general might find attractive is just an approximation. Maybe this man found that he was gaining more attention from women when he started to gain muscle mass, so he just keeps doing more of that. Eventually he might gain even more attention for other reasons (improved self-confidence), but it gets hard to tease apart the real causal factors.