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Your belief that the Iraqi armed forces of 1991 were decrepit and badly run is the proof of just how superior those weapons were, along with the accompanying ta

Your belief that the Iraqi armed forces of 1991 were decrepit and badly run is the proof of just how superior those weapons were, along with the accompanying tactics and doctrine. Before the conflict the overwhelming victory for the Coalition of Willing was not so clear. The Iraqi army was battle hardened and tested after a near decade long war against Iran. They had the third largest army in the world, which was trained in Soviet doctrine, armed with potent and modern weapon systems. Their integrated air defense system was state of the art combination of the most modern Soviet and European systems that were redundantly layered and hardened. America, along with its allies, fought them and won in spite of being geographically on the other side of the planet. The exceptional difficulty of achieving that is impossible over state.

KineticLensman 5y ago
> Their integrated air defense system was state of the art combination of the most modern Soviet and European systems that were redundantly layered and hardened. Not quite: for example, see [0]: "Though impressive on paper, the Iraqi Air Force's primary role was to act as a regional deterrent, with a secondary role of supporting the Iraqi Army, rather than attempt to gain air superiority in any conflict. Basic training was rigid, inflexible, and left pilots with extremely poor situational awareness.... Like its aircraft, much of Iraq's ground air defenses were also outdated: SA-2 and SA-3 systems were nearing the end of their operational lifespan and their countermeasures were well-known at this point, while its other SAM systems were not much younger." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign#Iraqi_Armed_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign#Iraqi_Ar...
- onepointsixC 5y ago
  I'm not talking about their missiles or air force, but the Integrated Air Defense System. The French built KARI IADS system was a very much modern at the time, having been first operationalized in 1987 and was linked with fiber optic cable, with wireless communication as a backup [0]. While the Iraqi's did not have the latest SAM systems themselves, their integrated air defense system allowed them to keep the radars of SAM batteries turned off, keeping them hidden to avoid detection. Their missiles were very potent, and it had a lot of them at 16,000 in total [1]: "The U.S. Government estimated before the war that the most critical Iraqi targets were more heavily defended than any in Eastern Europe even during the height of the Cold War." S-125 missiles had victories against coalition aircraft. They would have had many more victories were it not for the fact that coalition air strikes severed the centralized air command communications in the starting minutes of the war thanks to the Stealthy F-117's which were already above Baghdad at the time of H hour. The combination of stealth aircraft taking out key crucial infrastructure, severing of fiber optics communication, jamming of wireless communications, electronic warfare, and decoy drones proved to be too much for the Iraqi IAD's. But without those technologies and strategies, the Gulf War could have been a blood bath much more akin to Vietnam. [0]: https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/27/2001329817/-1/-1/0/AFD-100927-066.pdf https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/27/2001329817/-1/-1/0/AFD... [1]: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2009/P7837.pdf https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2009/P7837...
sandworm101 5y ago
>> The Iraqi army was battle hardened and tested after a near decade long war against Iran. Which means absolutely nothing if you cannot stop the airplane from dropping bombs on your critical logistics nodes. Those battle-hardened soldiers weren't so hard after a few days without water rations, without fuel in their tanks. In modern maneuver warfare between nation states "toughness" means far less than even a slight technological advantage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare
- onepointsixC 5y ago
  >Which means absolutely nothing if you cannot stop the airplane from dropping bombs on your critical logistics nodes. Which was only possible thanks to the superiority of American weapons system's which were better versions of old weapons. Thank you for reinforcing my point. Also the major coalition action was over after 3 days of fighting, that wasn't long enough for any Iraqi divisions to run out of supplies.

KineticLensman 5y ago

> Their integrated air defense system was state of the art combination of the most modern Soviet and European systems that were redundantly layered and hardened. Not quite: for example, see [0]: "Though impressive on paper, the Iraqi Air Force's primary role was to act as a regional deterrent, with a secondary role of supporting the Iraqi Army, rather than attempt to gain air superiority in any conflict. Basic training was rigid, inflexible, and left pilots with extremely poor situational awareness.... Like its aircraft, much of Iraq's ground air defenses were also outdated: SA-2 and SA-3 systems were nearing the end of their operational lifespan and their countermeasures were well-known at this point, while its other SAM systems were not much younger." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign#Iraqi_Armed_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign#Iraqi_Ar...

onepointsixC 5y ago
I'm not talking about their missiles or air force, but the Integrated Air Defense System. The French built KARI IADS system was a very much modern at the time, having been first operationalized in 1987 and was linked with fiber optic cable, with wireless communication as a backup [0]. While the Iraqi's did not have the latest SAM systems themselves, their integrated air defense system allowed them to keep the radars of SAM batteries turned off, keeping them hidden to avoid detection. Their missiles were very potent, and it had a lot of them at 16,000 in total [1]: "The U.S. Government estimated before the war that the most critical Iraqi targets were more heavily defended than any in Eastern Europe even during the height of the Cold War." S-125 missiles had victories against coalition aircraft. They would have had many more victories were it not for the fact that coalition air strikes severed the centralized air command communications in the starting minutes of the war thanks to the Stealthy F-117's which were already above Baghdad at the time of H hour. The combination of stealth aircraft taking out key crucial infrastructure, severing of fiber optics communication, jamming of wireless communications, electronic warfare, and decoy drones proved to be too much for the Iraqi IAD's. But without those technologies and strategies, the Gulf War could have been a blood bath much more akin to Vietnam. [0]: https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/27/2001329817/-1/-1/0/AFD-100927-066.pdf https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/27/2001329817/-1/-1/0/AFD... [1]: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2009/P7837.pdf https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2009/P7837...

sandworm101 5y ago

>> The Iraqi army was battle hardened and tested after a near decade long war against Iran. Which means absolutely nothing if you cannot stop the airplane from dropping bombs on your critical logistics nodes. Those battle-hardened soldiers weren't so hard after a few days without water rations, without fuel in their tanks. In modern maneuver warfare between nation states "toughness" means far less than even a slight technological advantage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare

onepointsixC 5y ago
>Which means absolutely nothing if you cannot stop the airplane from dropping bombs on your critical logistics nodes. Which was only possible thanks to the superiority of American weapons system's which were better versions of old weapons. Thank you for reinforcing my point. Also the major coalition action was over after 3 days of fighting, that wasn't long enough for any Iraqi divisions to run out of supplies.