13 ms·

Consumers need to demand better refund systems from the big console makers. On Steam if you don't like a game, or if it doesn't work for you, you can get a ful

by alickz 5y ago

Consumers need to demand better refund systems from the big console makers. On Steam if you don't like a game, or if it doesn't work for you, you can get a full refund no questions asked as long as it's within 14 days and with less than 2 hours playtime. In certain circumstances they even give refunds after 2 hours playtime (e.g. you spend 2+ hours debugging the game and trying to get it to run) This should be standard in games, including console games. It benefits the user AND the developer, as I've taken way more risks on games on Steam knowing if I don't like the game I can always return it, which leads to more devs getting my money and me playing games I otherwise wouldn't have.

darkteflon 5y ago
Honestly all of the refunds I’ve done on Xbox have been completely painless.
- alickz 5y ago
  That's great to hear. From their website[0] it seems they have a very similar policy to Steam, except their playtime criteria is a bit more vague. But still good to see. Sony on the other hand void any refund once you _begin downloading the game_[1], which is ridiculous. [0] https://support.xbox.com/en-GB/help/subscriptions-billing/buy-games-apps/refund-orders https://support.xbox.com/en-GB/help/subscriptions-billing/bu... [1] https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-refund-request/ https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-ref...
- JadoJodo 5y ago
  On the other end of the spectrum is Sony. Of the several times I've called in seeking a refund due to a game's (lack of) performance, only twice have I reached a live person within the 60-minutes I allotted to wait in the phone queue. Their chat support is also terrible, responding with generic "We don't offer refunds"-type messages regardless of the issue.
  - moepstar 5y ago
    While that is only one datapoint, this only reinforces my absolute motivation to not give Sony another €, ever, again... They've done themselves in, imho starting with their CD rootkit fiasco and, since then, they've time and again proven that Sony is a company that is not sincere, to say the least. Sony TV? nope.. Sony camera? not for me... Sony whatever? yeah, no...
3pt14159 5y ago
> It benefits the user AND the developer Notably it benefits good faith developers. I.e., the developers we actually want making games. The developers that lose under this model are the ones that make poor quality games. Though I admit it does not solve every dark pattern.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Kinda, but it also incentivizes bad-faith gamers, which in turn disincentivises good-faith developers. There are a lot of games out there with a <2hr play time that are perfectly fine games priced very reasonably, and a 2hr no-questions-asked policy is unfortunately often abused to return the games after completing them. The effect this has is that developers are incentivized to add filler content or just not produce a game at all. Perhaps such a system could work if it were based on a percentage of time-to-complete, but I have no idea how one would objectively determine that, especially before sale.
  - esterin 5y ago
    I don't have the numbers of course, but with the right design of the refund process, which Steam does have, I don't think enough people abuse the system to warrant that.
  - alickz 5y ago
    Yeah short vignette games were a concern when this was first announced. I don't know which solution Steam has for those (if any). Maybe they could not offer refunds after a significant percentage of the game has been played, regardless of time spent playing. Would be hard to determine how much of the game has been played though. The only way I could think of is to check achievements, but not all games have achievements. Or maybe expected length could be part of the store metadata. If the developer estimates 1.5hr playtime Steam could use that when processing refunds. Either way I'd consider this a corner case. To be solved sure, but not problem enough to disallow refund functionality for other games.
  - teddyh 5y ago
    > a 2hr no-questions-asked policy is unfortunately often abused to return the games after completing them. Is that really a big problem? Do you have actual numbers to that, and not just a hunch? I would actually guess that most people who can actually afford a game would pay for it. In my experience, most people who cheat in this way would not have bought the game anyway, so it’s not a lost sale.
pteraspidomorph 5y ago
It's legally mandated in the EU. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...
- salamandersauce 5y ago
  Except not for software or digital content once you've started downloading it. From the FAQ on the site you linked: "If you purchase digital content - such as music or a video online - you cannot withdraw once downloading or streaming has started, if you previously agreed that you would lose your right of withdrawal by starting the performance." That's how Nintendo of EU gets away with not refunding. You started downloading it so no returns.
  - alickz 5y ago
    >That's how Nintendo of EU gets away with not refunding. You started downloading it so no returns. Sony too. https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-refund-request/ https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-ref...
  - furiens 5y ago
    Annoyingly, they were also unwilling to refund me when I wasn’t able to even start to download a game I’d bought for over a week, due to a faulty console update patch. After over a week of back and forth emails (pointing out that I hadn’t yet lost my right of refund), they fixed the issue.
  - uuidgen 5y ago
    You can't return it "no questions asked", but if the product doesn't work you can request them to make it work or refund if they're unable to. If they don't want there is small claims court which is cheap and simple. I have used it in cases where some manufacturers would void warranty due to "water damage" after the product stopped working. In the end they paid: cost of purchase, cost to file, cost of my legal consultation, cost of expertise showing that there was no sign of water damage. Country - Poland.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
The only problem is that—ironically for a thread about the problems of DRM—this forces stores to implement some type of DRM scheme. GOG can't reasonably offer as generous a refund policy as Steam, because once you've downloaded a game, there's no way to give it back.
- throaway46546 5y ago
  Ironically GOG has an even more generous refund policy. >You may request a refund for a product up to 30 days after purchase, even if it was downloaded, launched, and played.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    Yes, but reportedly if you do this more than a few times they'll get upset with you.
    - josefx 5y ago
      I would expect that there is a problem on your end if you have to refund everything you buy. I can't remember the last time I bought something refund worthy, thought I was tempted the last time I bought a game on steam that required uplay.
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        I suppose it depends on what the purpose of the refunds are. For example, many online clothing retailers will encourage you to buy more clothing than you need so you can try it on at home, and return whatever you don't like. A lot of people definitely treat Steam's refund system this way, and Steam's automated refund process seems built to encourage it. You could also make a strong case that this is better for everyone, since consumers are more likely to take a chance on a game they're not sure about. On the other hand, it's a problem for games that are designed to be less than two hours—and it does basically require a DRM implementation.
jug 5y ago
I heard it was pretty easy to get refunded for Diablo 2 Resurrected by Microsoft on Xbox at least.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
> Consumers need to demand better refund systems from the big console makers. Nope. Don't let them self-regulate. They had their chance, free market blah blah blah. We need to demand legislators update consumer protection laws for all this "you don't own, you rent" crap, because it's become way more pervasive than just video games and movies. Heated seats in BMWs are now a "service"; I wish I were joking. And Tesla full self driving and supercharging, even though they are purchased features, do not pass to a new owner if the car is sold.
rickosborne 5y ago
> On Steam if you don't like a game, or if it doesn't work for you, you can get a full refund no questions asked as long as it's within 14 days and with less than 2 hours playtime. There's a hole here: that 14 days is from time of _purchase_ not _access_. I preordered _Humankind_ a month or two before launch, because it was listed as supporting MacOS. At launch, it didn't. It didn't get Mac support until 3 weeks later, even though that functionality was barely alpha quality with huge graphics and playability bugs. (Even today, months later, Mac support is barely at beta quality. And if you're on M1 you've got to manually configure the app for being run on Rosetta.) I waited 12 days after launch before giving up and requesting a refund. That refund was denied, because they had taken my money months before. Steam support was unmoved by my assertion that the developer was flat out lying about Mac playability, and that I literally had no way of playing the game as advertised. Be careful with your preorders, y'all.
- gamblor956 5y ago
  That doesn't sound right. I've pre-ordered a game via Steam and gotten it refunded after launch many months later. For pre-orders, the refund clock starts ticking at launch...unless the game includes early access.
  - rickosborne 5y ago
    It's been a few months, so I went back and checked my story. I definitely never did get the refund, but maybe I was misremembering things. There's one extra piece I had forgotten: the split "release" of the Mac version. tl;dr: Steam didn't know anything about the devs releasing the Mac version late, so the "14 days from release" didn't line up with my expectation of "14 days from access". Details for posterity: The game was set to launch on Aug 17. On Aug 3, the team included a footnote at the bottom of a news announcement which said Mac would be delayed by "about a month": https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detail/2975176085261555409 https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detai... (There was also a pinned discussion topic about this at the time, which has since been de-pinned. It didn't have any more details than "see the announcement".) A month later, on Sep 15, a beta for Mac was announced: https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detail/2873849260882760293 https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detai... Another month later, on Oct 21, Mac support was still in Beta, and M1 was still TBD: https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detail/3037107931329009035 https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detai... If you want to see the dumpster fire of poor communication and frustrated customers at the time: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/search/?q=mac+support&include_deleted=1 https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/search/?q... I asked for a refund on Sept 11, some 4 days before the beta announcement, and was denied the same day. I followed up via email for details, but was basically told the same "nope, it's been out too long" story in longer form. (At the time, there had been _zero_ word from the devs about Mac support, despite the initial "about a month" estimate, so I lost hope it would happen in anything like a timely manner.) It looks like people were able to get refunds later that month specifically due to the lack of M1 support: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/0/2963922521559485487/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/0/2963922... I guess I happened to fall right into that dead zone between everyone wanting to believe the devs were running just a little behind, and people at Steam realizing there was a legitimate problem. I was cranky about it at the time, but months later I get that there was probably not going to be any other outcome. I certainly don't ascribe any malice, nefarious plotting, or ill intent on the part of Steam or the devs ... but nor would I say that I think either responded in the interests of the customers. If I could get Steam to improve from this I'd love for them to track platform-specific release dates, and be more strict about developers claiming support for platforms which don't actually run the game ... but I'm not going to hold my breath. As for myself ... as much as I believe in the idea that preorders can be used to help fund games, and help keep devs employed by not reinforcing the cycle of crunch-then-layoff, I admit this experience (and other preorders-go-sideways experiences like Homeworld 3, FF7R) has kindof soured me on it. It's fine as an abstract concept, but it's at odds with the reality of date-driven releases (as opposed to quality-driven). These days I'm more likely to just add something to my wishlist and check back some time after release day to see if there are any dumpster fires.
girvo 5y ago
That refund system for Steam only exists because the ACCC forced them to comply with Australian consumer law. And Valve still punish Australia for that by refusing to sell hardware here directly. No Index or Steam Deck for us.

by alickz 5y ago

darkteflon 5y ago

Honestly all of the refunds I’ve done on Xbox have been completely painless.

alickz 5y ago
That's great to hear. From their website[0] it seems they have a very similar policy to Steam, except their playtime criteria is a bit more vague. But still good to see. Sony on the other hand void any refund once you _begin downloading the game_[1], which is ridiculous. [0] https://support.xbox.com/en-GB/help/subscriptions-billing/buy-games-apps/refund-orders https://support.xbox.com/en-GB/help/subscriptions-billing/bu... [1] https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-refund-request/ https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-ref...
JadoJodo 5y ago
On the other end of the spectrum is Sony. Of the several times I've called in seeking a refund due to a game's (lack of) performance, only twice have I reached a live person within the 60-minutes I allotted to wait in the phone queue. Their chat support is also terrible, responding with generic "We don't offer refunds"-type messages regardless of the issue.
- moepstar 5y ago
  While that is only one datapoint, this only reinforces my absolute motivation to not give Sony another €, ever, again... They've done themselves in, imho starting with their CD rootkit fiasco and, since then, they've time and again proven that Sony is a company that is not sincere, to say the least. Sony TV? nope.. Sony camera? not for me... Sony whatever? yeah, no...

3pt14159 5y ago

> It benefits the user AND the developer Notably it benefits good faith developers. I.e., the developers we actually want making games. The developers that lose under this model are the ones that make poor quality games. Though I admit it does not solve every dark pattern.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Kinda, but it also incentivizes bad-faith gamers, which in turn disincentivises good-faith developers. There are a lot of games out there with a <2hr play time that are perfectly fine games priced very reasonably, and a 2hr no-questions-asked policy is unfortunately often abused to return the games after completing them. The effect this has is that developers are incentivized to add filler content or just not produce a game at all. Perhaps such a system could work if it were based on a percentage of time-to-complete, but I have no idea how one would objectively determine that, especially before sale.
- esterin 5y ago
  I don't have the numbers of course, but with the right design of the refund process, which Steam does have, I don't think enough people abuse the system to warrant that.
- alickz 5y ago
  Yeah short vignette games were a concern when this was first announced. I don't know which solution Steam has for those (if any). Maybe they could not offer refunds after a significant percentage of the game has been played, regardless of time spent playing. Would be hard to determine how much of the game has been played though. The only way I could think of is to check achievements, but not all games have achievements. Or maybe expected length could be part of the store metadata. If the developer estimates 1.5hr playtime Steam could use that when processing refunds. Either way I'd consider this a corner case. To be solved sure, but not problem enough to disallow refund functionality for other games.
- teddyh 5y ago
  > a 2hr no-questions-asked policy is unfortunately often abused to return the games after completing them. Is that really a big problem? Do you have actual numbers to that, and not just a hunch? I would actually guess that most people who can actually afford a game would pay for it. In my experience, most people who cheat in this way would not have bought the game anyway, so it’s not a lost sale.

pteraspidomorph 5y ago

It's legally mandated in the EU. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...

salamandersauce 5y ago
Except not for software or digital content once you've started downloading it. From the FAQ on the site you linked: "If you purchase digital content - such as music or a video online - you cannot withdraw once downloading or streaming has started, if you previously agreed that you would lose your right of withdrawal by starting the performance." That's how Nintendo of EU gets away with not refunding. You started downloading it so no returns.
- alickz 5y ago
  >That's how Nintendo of EU gets away with not refunding. You started downloading it so no returns. Sony too. https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-refund-request/ https://www.playstation.com/en-ie/support/store/ps-store-ref...
- furiens 5y ago
  Annoyingly, they were also unwilling to refund me when I wasn’t able to even start to download a game I’d bought for over a week, due to a faulty console update patch. After over a week of back and forth emails (pointing out that I hadn’t yet lost my right of refund), they fixed the issue.
- uuidgen 5y ago
  You can't return it "no questions asked", but if the product doesn't work you can request them to make it work or refund if they're unable to. If they don't want there is small claims court which is cheap and simple. I have used it in cases where some manufacturers would void warranty due to "water damage" after the product stopped working. In the end they paid: cost of purchase, cost to file, cost of my legal consultation, cost of expertise showing that there was no sign of water damage. Country - Poland.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

The only problem is that—ironically for a thread about the problems of DRM—this forces stores to implement some type of DRM scheme. GOG can't reasonably offer as generous a refund policy as Steam, because once you've downloaded a game, there's no way to give it back.

throaway46546 5y ago
Ironically GOG has an even more generous refund policy. >You may request a refund for a product up to 30 days after purchase, even if it was downloaded, launched, and played.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  Yes, but reportedly if you do this more than a few times they'll get upset with you.
  - josefx 5y ago
    I would expect that there is a problem on your end if you have to refund everything you buy. I can't remember the last time I bought something refund worthy, thought I was tempted the last time I bought a game on steam that required uplay.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      I suppose it depends on what the purpose of the refunds are. For example, many online clothing retailers will encourage you to buy more clothing than you need so you can try it on at home, and return whatever you don't like. A lot of people definitely treat Steam's refund system this way, and Steam's automated refund process seems built to encourage it. You could also make a strong case that this is better for everyone, since consumers are more likely to take a chance on a game they're not sure about. On the other hand, it's a problem for games that are designed to be less than two hours—and it does basically require a DRM implementation.

jug 5y ago

I heard it was pretty easy to get refunded for Diablo 2 Resurrected by Microsoft on Xbox at least.

KennyBlanken 5y ago

> Consumers need to demand better refund systems from the big console makers. Nope. Don't let them self-regulate. They had their chance, free market blah blah blah. We need to demand legislators update consumer protection laws for all this "you don't own, you rent" crap, because it's become way more pervasive than just video games and movies. Heated seats in BMWs are now a "service"; I wish I were joking. And Tesla full self driving and supercharging, even though they are purchased features, do not pass to a new owner if the car is sold.

rickosborne 5y ago

> On Steam if you don't like a game, or if it doesn't work for you, you can get a full refund no questions asked as long as it's within 14 days and with less than 2 hours playtime. There's a hole here: that 14 days is from time of _purchase_ not _access_. I preordered _Humankind_ a month or two before launch, because it was listed as supporting MacOS. At launch, it didn't. It didn't get Mac support until 3 weeks later, even though that functionality was barely alpha quality with huge graphics and playability bugs. (Even today, months later, Mac support is barely at beta quality. And if you're on M1 you've got to manually configure the app for being run on Rosetta.) I waited 12 days after launch before giving up and requesting a refund. That refund was denied, because they had taken my money months before. Steam support was unmoved by my assertion that the developer was flat out lying about Mac playability, and that I literally had no way of playing the game as advertised. Be careful with your preorders, y'all.

gamblor956 5y ago
That doesn't sound right. I've pre-ordered a game via Steam and gotten it refunded after launch many months later. For pre-orders, the refund clock starts ticking at launch...unless the game includes early access.
- rickosborne 5y ago
  It's been a few months, so I went back and checked my story. I definitely never did get the refund, but maybe I was misremembering things. There's one extra piece I had forgotten: the split "release" of the Mac version. tl;dr: Steam didn't know anything about the devs releasing the Mac version late, so the "14 days from release" didn't line up with my expectation of "14 days from access". Details for posterity: The game was set to launch on Aug 17. On Aug 3, the team included a footnote at the bottom of a news announcement which said Mac would be delayed by "about a month": https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detail/2975176085261555409 https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detai... (There was also a pinned discussion topic about this at the time, which has since been de-pinned. It didn't have any more details than "see the announcement".) A month later, on Sep 15, a beta for Mac was announced: https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detail/2873849260882760293 https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detai... Another month later, on Oct 21, Mac support was still in Beta, and M1 was still TBD: https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detail/3037107931329009035 https://steamcommunity.com/games/1124300/announcements/detai... If you want to see the dumpster fire of poor communication and frustrated customers at the time: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/search/?q=mac+support&include_deleted=1 https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/search/?q... I asked for a refund on Sept 11, some 4 days before the beta announcement, and was denied the same day. I followed up via email for details, but was basically told the same "nope, it's been out too long" story in longer form. (At the time, there had been _zero_ word from the devs about Mac support, despite the initial "about a month" estimate, so I lost hope it would happen in anything like a timely manner.) It looks like people were able to get refunds later that month specifically due to the lack of M1 support: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/0/2963922521559485487/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/0/2963922... I guess I happened to fall right into that dead zone between everyone wanting to believe the devs were running just a little behind, and people at Steam realizing there was a legitimate problem. I was cranky about it at the time, but months later I get that there was probably not going to be any other outcome. I certainly don't ascribe any malice, nefarious plotting, or ill intent on the part of Steam or the devs ... but nor would I say that I think either responded in the interests of the customers. If I could get Steam to improve from this I'd love for them to track platform-specific release dates, and be more strict about developers claiming support for platforms which don't actually run the game ... but I'm not going to hold my breath. As for myself ... as much as I believe in the idea that preorders can be used to help fund games, and help keep devs employed by not reinforcing the cycle of crunch-then-layoff, I admit this experience (and other preorders-go-sideways experiences like Homeworld 3, FF7R) has kindof soured me on it. It's fine as an abstract concept, but it's at odds with the reality of date-driven releases (as opposed to quality-driven). These days I'm more likely to just add something to my wishlist and check back some time after release day to see if there are any dumpster fires.

girvo 5y ago

That refund system for Steam only exists because the ACCC forced them to comply with Australian consumer law. And Valve still punish Australia for that by refusing to sell hardware here directly. No Index or Steam Deck for us.