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The next most effective thing to do is External wall insulation. However that'll mean that you'll loose the whinstone look. (unless you pay a _lot_ to get whins

The next most effective thing to do is External wall insulation. However that'll mean that you'll loose the whinstone look. (unless you pay a _lot_ to get whinstone like shims put on after) The alternative is to have internal wall insulation: https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/product/vacutherm-vacupor-nt-b2-vacuum-insulated-panel-600mm-x-250mm-x-20mm.html https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/product/vacutherm-vac... This is as effective as ~150mm of rockwool, but only 20mm thick. So this can be stuck behind plaster/plasterboard. but its not easy to work with, or widespread yet.

ricardo81 5y ago
Yes, it's one of the top recommendations (internal wall insulation) on my EPC and have had a survey. 60mm PIR boards would be used. Turns out I wouldn't have to sacrifice much space but would have to pay a bit extra replacing the cornices. There are some regional grants in the UK that can cover a large portion of the amount. For me, it is £7.5K, with the quote I received at £9K. This would not have covered the kitchen or bathroom. Going by EPC recommendations and numbers alone, I can reduce my energy requirement by about 40%.
- rogalian 5y ago
  Had to sign up for this. Take extra care to use appropriate materials for a house this age or you'll create more problems than you solve. Solid stone walls need to breathe! Make sure you've spoken with a surveyor specialising in heritage property too. PIR boards are almost certainly unsuitable. https://www.victorian-house.co.uk/ https://www.victorian-house.co.uk/ (be sure to pick up a copy of the Haynes Victorian House manual, it's a gem) https://www.lime.org.uk/community/boards-insulation.html https://www.lime.org.uk/community/boards-insulation.html I'm currently having to undo poor choices of modernisation on a building of the same age, which caused tremendous problems with damp.
  - ricardo81 5y ago
    Thanks for taking the time to sign up. I intend to use rockwool for the floor and roof crawl space. Luckily I have a relative in the field who can share advice. I am conscientious of the condensation issue. There's a company local to me who use hemp boards which are porous. What you say is definitely something to consider given the extent of work involved, and to possibly undo.
  - Dylanfm 5y ago
    Another good resource is https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org e.g their page on Thermal Envelope > Bio aggregate https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org/bio-aggregate/ https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org/bio-aggregate/
- markvdb 5y ago
  Be super careful internally insulating an old house. This can cause _a lot_ of humidity problems if not done _exactly_ right. Very often, there is no way to do it exactly right! I would recommend you to consider breathable internal insulation materials, combined with breathable finish layers of course! Some hints. Roof (or attic floor) insulation is the most important. I imagine those have been done properly already. Walls. There's industrial products for walls, like Xella Multipor. You may also want to have a look at eco products, especially if working on the place yourself. Hempcrete is a fairly forgiving material that works rather well for this purpose. Rather expensive to have it installed, but easy to do yourself. Ground floors. Have a look at foam glass [0] insulation. It both stabilises and insulates, is moisture and fire proof, not horribly expensive and saves you from having to put in a layer of concrete. Not super well known yet, but growing in popularity. A wonderful material and super easy and forgiving to work with. A no-brainer really in many cases... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foam_glass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foam_glass
  - mnw21cam 5y ago
    The one key rule that you should always follow is to have your water-impermeable layer on the warm side of the insulation. So, I'd recommend against breathable internal insulation, because that will make your solid wall (water-impermeable layer) colder, but still exposed to the humid inside air, and this could cause condensation on that cold wall. As an example of this, I have rubbish double glazing, and when the temperature drops outside, if I have just the curtains drawn (which don't really provide any insulation) then I'm fine, but if I lower the thermal blackout blinds, then I get loads of condensation on the inside of the windows, which I remove with a window vac in the morning. Breathable external insulation is less of a problem, because it warms up the wall, while exposing it to the comparatively dry air from outside, so you shouldn't get any condensation.
    - HPsquared 5y ago
      Agreed, houses with insulation have a vapour barrier behind the plasterboard for this reason: counterintuitively, the warm internal air carries a lot more moisture than the cold air outside. The partial pressure of water vapour is higher inside the house than outside, so the dew point of the internal air is higher than the outside temperature (dew point depends on water content). If there's a way for that moisture to diffuse through the wall from inside, through the insulation, to the cold structure (which would be colder than before due to the internal insulation), the conditions are right for condensation to form. Those conditions are: surface temperature ≤ dew point. Condensation can be prevented by a combination of: 1. Reduce the rate of moisture diffusion from the interior (seal the rooms and use a vapour barrier) 2. Lower the dew point of the air in the "cold" structural areas by ventilating the cold space to outside, so the moisture can exit (this is why houses have air bricks, vents in the roof, etc.) 3. Prevent the building structure from being colder than the internal dew point (i.e. use external insulation)
lbriner 5y ago
An easier solution is plasterboard already bonded to PIR or XPS. The XPS is cheaper and I don't think it will make a massive difference depending on all the other challenges like windows and doors. You can simply stick this to existing walls with adhesive foam and then dry-line or skim the boards afterwards. To do it well, though, you will often need to cut out/remove any laminate flooring so the boards can meet the floor and they won't do anything about leakage between floors, which can be significant.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  > plasterboard already bonded to PIR As you point out they are normally ~25mm or so of EPS/XPS. which doesn't do _much_, especially compared to 600mm of stone. Plus XPS is pretty flammable, so with electricity cables sandwiched between it, its not a great thing to have inside the house.
bainsfather 5y ago
I followed your link, but am confused and/or doubtful: how do you replace 150mm of rockwool with 20mm of anything other than a good vacuum? It says that they are 'very low internal pressure' - but if it contains any kind of gas (which i presume it must do - air if nothing else) then the conductivity does not depend on pressure until the mean-free-path has increased to be > the width of the container. Is this product real? What is it about the physics that I am not understanding? And how do you maintain the 'very low internal pressure' over the decades that you will need it for? Thanks.
- coryrc 5y ago
  It is a good vacuum. They work but are expensive and a single nail destroys the whole panel, but maybe cheaper than the loss of floor space.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  From what I've seen, its basically a honeycomb with a thick plastic coated foil to act as an atmospheric barrier. I came across it from a number of sites, but I've not managed to get any samples yet. > And how do you maintain the 'very low internal pressure' over the decades that you will need it for? now thats a million dollar question. I don't know.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  > conductivity does not depend on pressure I think it might be fumed silica aerogel at about 0.1 bar. This paper describes the use of the same material for building insulation: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-The-thermal-conductivity-of-air-as-a-function-of-the-air-pressure-and-the-average_fig2_281970746 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-The-thermal-conductivi... I suspect the key issue will be maintaining that low pressure for the ~100 year lifespan of the building. Perhaps future versions will come with micro pumps so that once per year the pressure can be pumped back down to 0.1 bar. Looks like for about a dollar you can buy a little 3 volt vacuum pump. One per panel out to do a decent job.
- chipsa 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_insulated_panel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_insulated_panel Looks like the thing. So, yeah, very good vacuum. It's apparently decades for the lifespan, but much of it boils down to the materials being used.

ricardo81 5y ago

Yes, it's one of the top recommendations (internal wall insulation) on my EPC and have had a survey. 60mm PIR boards would be used. Turns out I wouldn't have to sacrifice much space but would have to pay a bit extra replacing the cornices. There are some regional grants in the UK that can cover a large portion of the amount. For me, it is £7.5K, with the quote I received at £9K. This would not have covered the kitchen or bathroom. Going by EPC recommendations and numbers alone, I can reduce my energy requirement by about 40%.

rogalian 5y ago
Had to sign up for this. Take extra care to use appropriate materials for a house this age or you'll create more problems than you solve. Solid stone walls need to breathe! Make sure you've spoken with a surveyor specialising in heritage property too. PIR boards are almost certainly unsuitable. https://www.victorian-house.co.uk/ https://www.victorian-house.co.uk/ (be sure to pick up a copy of the Haynes Victorian House manual, it's a gem) https://www.lime.org.uk/community/boards-insulation.html https://www.lime.org.uk/community/boards-insulation.html I'm currently having to undo poor choices of modernisation on a building of the same age, which caused tremendous problems with damp.
- ricardo81 5y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to sign up. I intend to use rockwool for the floor and roof crawl space. Luckily I have a relative in the field who can share advice. I am conscientious of the condensation issue. There's a company local to me who use hemp boards which are porous. What you say is definitely something to consider given the extent of work involved, and to possibly undo.
- Dylanfm 5y ago
  Another good resource is https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org e.g their page on Thermal Envelope > Bio aggregate https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org/bio-aggregate/ https://www.neighbourhoodconstruction.org/bio-aggregate/
markvdb 5y ago
Be super careful internally insulating an old house. This can cause _a lot_ of humidity problems if not done _exactly_ right. Very often, there is no way to do it exactly right! I would recommend you to consider breathable internal insulation materials, combined with breathable finish layers of course! Some hints. Roof (or attic floor) insulation is the most important. I imagine those have been done properly already. Walls. There's industrial products for walls, like Xella Multipor. You may also want to have a look at eco products, especially if working on the place yourself. Hempcrete is a fairly forgiving material that works rather well for this purpose. Rather expensive to have it installed, but easy to do yourself. Ground floors. Have a look at foam glass [0] insulation. It both stabilises and insulates, is moisture and fire proof, not horribly expensive and saves you from having to put in a layer of concrete. Not super well known yet, but growing in popularity. A wonderful material and super easy and forgiving to work with. A no-brainer really in many cases... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foam_glass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foam_glass
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  The one key rule that you should always follow is to have your water-impermeable layer on the warm side of the insulation. So, I'd recommend against breathable internal insulation, because that will make your solid wall (water-impermeable layer) colder, but still exposed to the humid inside air, and this could cause condensation on that cold wall. As an example of this, I have rubbish double glazing, and when the temperature drops outside, if I have just the curtains drawn (which don't really provide any insulation) then I'm fine, but if I lower the thermal blackout blinds, then I get loads of condensation on the inside of the windows, which I remove with a window vac in the morning. Breathable external insulation is less of a problem, because it warms up the wall, while exposing it to the comparatively dry air from outside, so you shouldn't get any condensation.
  - HPsquared 5y ago
    Agreed, houses with insulation have a vapour barrier behind the plasterboard for this reason: counterintuitively, the warm internal air carries a lot more moisture than the cold air outside. The partial pressure of water vapour is higher inside the house than outside, so the dew point of the internal air is higher than the outside temperature (dew point depends on water content). If there's a way for that moisture to diffuse through the wall from inside, through the insulation, to the cold structure (which would be colder than before due to the internal insulation), the conditions are right for condensation to form. Those conditions are: surface temperature ≤ dew point. Condensation can be prevented by a combination of: 1. Reduce the rate of moisture diffusion from the interior (seal the rooms and use a vapour barrier) 2. Lower the dew point of the air in the "cold" structural areas by ventilating the cold space to outside, so the moisture can exit (this is why houses have air bricks, vents in the roof, etc.) 3. Prevent the building structure from being colder than the internal dew point (i.e. use external insulation)

lbriner 5y ago

An easier solution is plasterboard already bonded to PIR or XPS. The XPS is cheaper and I don't think it will make a massive difference depending on all the other challenges like windows and doors. You can simply stick this to existing walls with adhesive foam and then dry-line or skim the boards afterwards. To do it well, though, you will often need to cut out/remove any laminate flooring so the boards can meet the floor and they won't do anything about leakage between floors, which can be significant.

KaiserPro 5y ago
> plasterboard already bonded to PIR As you point out they are normally ~25mm or so of EPS/XPS. which doesn't do _much_, especially compared to 600mm of stone. Plus XPS is pretty flammable, so with electricity cables sandwiched between it, its not a great thing to have inside the house.

bainsfather 5y ago

I followed your link, but am confused and/or doubtful: how do you replace 150mm of rockwool with 20mm of anything other than a good vacuum? It says that they are 'very low internal pressure' - but if it contains any kind of gas (which i presume it must do - air if nothing else) then the conductivity does not depend on pressure until the mean-free-path has increased to be > the width of the container. Is this product real? What is it about the physics that I am not understanding? And how do you maintain the 'very low internal pressure' over the decades that you will need it for? Thanks.

coryrc 5y ago
It is a good vacuum. They work but are expensive and a single nail destroys the whole panel, but maybe cheaper than the loss of floor space.
KaiserPro 5y ago
From what I've seen, its basically a honeycomb with a thick plastic coated foil to act as an atmospheric barrier. I came across it from a number of sites, but I've not managed to get any samples yet. > And how do you maintain the 'very low internal pressure' over the decades that you will need it for? now thats a million dollar question. I don't know.
londons_explore 5y ago
> conductivity does not depend on pressure I think it might be fumed silica aerogel at about 0.1 bar. This paper describes the use of the same material for building insulation: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-The-thermal-conductivity-of-air-as-a-function-of-the-air-pressure-and-the-average_fig2_281970746 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-The-thermal-conductivi... I suspect the key issue will be maintaining that low pressure for the ~100 year lifespan of the building. Perhaps future versions will come with micro pumps so that once per year the pressure can be pumped back down to 0.1 bar. Looks like for about a dollar you can buy a little 3 volt vacuum pump. One per panel out to do a decent job.
chipsa 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_insulated_panel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_insulated_panel Looks like the thing. So, yeah, very good vacuum. It's apparently decades for the lifespan, but much of it boils down to the materials being used.