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> Flat earthers are proof that some people will just obstinately believe in complete and utter horseshit. As are people who blindly support "democracy" and th

> Flat earthers are proof that some people will just obstinately believe in complete and utter horseshit. As are people who blindly support "democracy" and the subsequent actions that are taken by the people elected (typically re-elected) "by the people". Maybe flat earthers are dumber on a relative scale, but it would be interesting to see how things look on an absolute scale. > I mean something specific about stupid. Not just wrong, not just ignorant, but actively and self-assuredly wrong, often to their own detriment. Beware stupid people in large numbers. And more important than their relative intelligence: who causes more harm in the world (say, measured in body count in foreign military adventures)?

alexvoda 5y ago
> As are people who blindly support "democracy" and the subsequent actions that are taken by the people elected (typically re-elected) "by the people". Very well, I'll bite. What do you propose as an alternative? How does your alternative solve the current issues?
- goatlover 5y ago
  Depending on the exact democracy: better voting methods, more relevant political parties, more independent judiciary, reduced monetary influence, more transparency. That would be admitting that modern liberal, representative democracies have flaws and need some reform.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    I'm sincerely curious: What do you think of Popehat's Law of Goats? ;) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29975362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29975362
  - alexvoda 5y ago
    That is still democracy! Complaining about individual pain points is helpful. No past present or future democracy is perfect. There is plenty that can be improved. Complaining about democracy means you want to bring about totalitarism or theocracy or something else.
    - mistermann 5y ago
      > Complaining about democracy means you want to bring about totalitarism or theocracy or something else. Are the members of "something else" similarly distasteful to "totalitarism or theocracy"?
- mistermann 5y ago
  I propose that a grassroots initiative is started with the intent to develop a new system for implementing democracy, the goal being to run in parallel with the current system and then one day replace it. And since "people are too dumb" for us to adopt direct democracy is a legitimate complaint, it might be a good idea to address that problem simultaneously. Teaching epistemology and logic to the masses would yield massive benefits across the board imho.
  - alexvoda 5y ago
    > I propose that a grassroots initiative is started with the intent to develop a new system for implementing democracy, the goal being to run in parallel with the current system and then one day replace it. You backpaddled. So you still want democracy? What you actually want is to organise a coup. A shadow government that one day replaces the official one. You want a coup. In your initial comment you complained about democracy itself therefore signaling you would prefer a totalitarian regime. Wanting a coup and a totalitarian regimes goes hand in hand. > Teaching epistemology and logic to the masses would yield massive benefits across the board imho. Very well, do it! Maybe then you will realise this last comment is word salad.
    - mistermann 5y ago
      > You backpaddled. No, I didn't. > So you still want democracy? Actual democracy, yes. > What you actually want is to organise a coup. A shadow government that one day replaces the official one. You want a coup. coup: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. Technically, you are dealing with your imagination of what I want - I do not desire this, and no such claim exists in the text that I wrote. > In your initial comment you complained about democracy itself therefore signaling you would prefer a totalitarian regime. Wanting a coup and a totalitarian regimes goes hand in hand. Consider carefully this word: "signalling". What does it mean in this context, precisely? >> Teaching epistemology and logic to the masses would yield massive benefits across the board imho. > Very well, do it! How am I doing so far? > Maybe then you will realise this last comment is word salad. This sounds like a fun epistemological exercise: do you have the ability to articulate why that comment "is" "word salad"? Do you mean this in a comprehensive sense...it "is" "word salad" to all observers, or do you actually only know that it appears that way (as opposed to "is") to yourself?
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
That's an excellent point. Flat-earthers as a group are an easy target because their 'belief' is essentially harmless and they're a small enough group that they really don't and can't cause any trouble; they're not, and never likely to reach, a critical mass that can alter society's momentum. Their argument also isn't compelling and cannot act as a crutch or focal point of blame for a perceived societal ill. Racism and xenophobia on the other hand... On democracy, I really like this quote: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Democracy gives equal merit to the intelligent, the stupid, and the wilfully ignorant. This is the best we can do? If you want a somewhat uniquely American critical-thinking-eschewing topic: Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism. That's a land mine I like to step on occasionally to gauge the current sensitivity.
- mistermann 5y ago
  > Racism and xenophobia on the other hand... Also: war and economic dominance conducted by democratic countries, decade after decade, whose citizens seem to exist in some sort of a state of hypnosis where they seem fascinated by trivial matters like flat earthers, but have little more than platitudes or "nothing can be done" when it comes to actual harm, which their tax dollars and political complacency support, indefinitely.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    Incredibly well said. How trivial the media-selected "outrage of the moment" issues are in comparison to various hideous behaviours that have somehow become accepted by society as normal.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” ~~ Winston Churchill.
notriddle 5y ago
> And more important than their relative intelligence: who causes more harm in the world You are much more likely to die on the toilet than you are to die of a gunshot wound. This does not mean guns are safer than toilets.
- TheMonarchist 5y ago
  > You are much more likely to die on the toilet than you are to die of a gunshot wound. That's because people spend more time on the toilet than at gunpoint on average.
  - notriddle 5y ago
    Yes. The point is that lower-case-d democrats have done more harm in the world than flat earthers, mostly from being more numerous, even while being less dangerous. Damage = Dangerousness * Number Lowercase-d democrats have also done more good in the world than flat-earthers, and caused more change in the world with unclear value.
IAmEveryone 5y ago
Nobody "blindly" supports democracy. It happens to be a system with an obvious mechanism for continuous improvement or at least self-correction. It's also empirically quite successful at avoiding war and fostering prosperity.

alexvoda 5y ago

> As are people who blindly support "democracy" and the subsequent actions that are taken by the people elected (typically re-elected) "by the people". Very well, I'll bite. What do you propose as an alternative? How does your alternative solve the current issues?

goatlover 5y ago
Depending on the exact democracy: better voting methods, more relevant political parties, more independent judiciary, reduced monetary influence, more transparency. That would be admitting that modern liberal, representative democracies have flaws and need some reform.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  I'm sincerely curious: What do you think of Popehat's Law of Goats? ;) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29975362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29975362
- alexvoda 5y ago
  That is still democracy! Complaining about individual pain points is helpful. No past present or future democracy is perfect. There is plenty that can be improved. Complaining about democracy means you want to bring about totalitarism or theocracy or something else.
  - mistermann 5y ago
    > Complaining about democracy means you want to bring about totalitarism or theocracy or something else. Are the members of "something else" similarly distasteful to "totalitarism or theocracy"?
mistermann 5y ago
I propose that a grassroots initiative is started with the intent to develop a new system for implementing democracy, the goal being to run in parallel with the current system and then one day replace it. And since "people are too dumb" for us to adopt direct democracy is a legitimate complaint, it might be a good idea to address that problem simultaneously. Teaching epistemology and logic to the masses would yield massive benefits across the board imho.
- alexvoda 5y ago
  > I propose that a grassroots initiative is started with the intent to develop a new system for implementing democracy, the goal being to run in parallel with the current system and then one day replace it. You backpaddled. So you still want democracy? What you actually want is to organise a coup. A shadow government that one day replaces the official one. You want a coup. In your initial comment you complained about democracy itself therefore signaling you would prefer a totalitarian regime. Wanting a coup and a totalitarian regimes goes hand in hand. > Teaching epistemology and logic to the masses would yield massive benefits across the board imho. Very well, do it! Maybe then you will realise this last comment is word salad.
  - mistermann 5y ago
    > You backpaddled. No, I didn't. > So you still want democracy? Actual democracy, yes. > What you actually want is to organise a coup. A shadow government that one day replaces the official one. You want a coup. coup: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. Technically, you are dealing with your imagination of what I want - I do not desire this, and no such claim exists in the text that I wrote. > In your initial comment you complained about democracy itself therefore signaling you would prefer a totalitarian regime. Wanting a coup and a totalitarian regimes goes hand in hand. Consider carefully this word: "signalling". What does it mean in this context, precisely? >> Teaching epistemology and logic to the masses would yield massive benefits across the board imho. > Very well, do it! How am I doing so far? > Maybe then you will realise this last comment is word salad. This sounds like a fun epistemological exercise: do you have the ability to articulate why that comment "is" "word salad"? Do you mean this in a comprehensive sense...it "is" "word salad" to all observers, or do you actually only know that it appears that way (as opposed to "is") to yourself?

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

That's an excellent point. Flat-earthers as a group are an easy target because their 'belief' is essentially harmless and they're a small enough group that they really don't and can't cause any trouble; they're not, and never likely to reach, a critical mass that can alter society's momentum. Their argument also isn't compelling and cannot act as a crutch or focal point of blame for a perceived societal ill. Racism and xenophobia on the other hand... On democracy, I really like this quote: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Democracy gives equal merit to the intelligent, the stupid, and the wilfully ignorant. This is the best we can do? If you want a somewhat uniquely American critical-thinking-eschewing topic: Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism. That's a land mine I like to step on occasionally to gauge the current sensitivity.

mistermann 5y ago
> Racism and xenophobia on the other hand... Also: war and economic dominance conducted by democratic countries, decade after decade, whose citizens seem to exist in some sort of a state of hypnosis where they seem fascinated by trivial matters like flat earthers, but have little more than platitudes or "nothing can be done" when it comes to actual harm, which their tax dollars and political complacency support, indefinitely.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  Incredibly well said. How trivial the media-selected "outrage of the moment" issues are in comparison to various hideous behaviours that have somehow become accepted by society as normal.
denton-scratch 5y ago
> “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” ~~ Winston Churchill.

notriddle 5y ago

> And more important than their relative intelligence: who causes more harm in the world You are much more likely to die on the toilet than you are to die of a gunshot wound. This does not mean guns are safer than toilets.

TheMonarchist 5y ago
> You are much more likely to die on the toilet than you are to die of a gunshot wound. That's because people spend more time on the toilet than at gunpoint on average.
- notriddle 5y ago
  Yes. The point is that lower-case-d democrats have done more harm in the world than flat earthers, mostly from being more numerous, even while being less dangerous. Damage = Dangerousness * Number Lowercase-d democrats have also done more good in the world than flat-earthers, and caused more change in the world with unclear value.

IAmEveryone 5y ago

Nobody "blindly" supports democracy. It happens to be a system with an obvious mechanism for continuous improvement or at least self-correction. It's also empirically quite successful at avoiding war and fostering prosperity.