6 ms·

Early, state-sanctioned LSD experiments in Bulgaria (2016)

79 points by Hooke 5y ago

vmception 5y ago
My key takeaways from this that I also find thought provoking > according to her findings, LSD cannot actually make one more creative. However, it can make a person “see” letters and words in different colors and experience synesthesia No conclusion for me, I understand that people really want this to happen, I'm skeptical of that particular conclusion while also skeptical of what LSD could actually provide someone, but I'm open to any outcome. > the drug enabled her to gain an insight into the world of the mentally ill by experiencing schizophrenia-like symptoms herself This matches an 'empathy' element that many people say occurs after their usage
- whatshisface 5y ago
  >This matches an 'empathy' element that many people say occurs after their usage The empathy LSD fans are talking about isn't "yes, I have experienced drug side effects similar to your natural illness," it's something broader than that.
  - vmception 5y ago
    yes broader but also includes that.
- yathern 5y ago
  > the drug enabled her to gain an insight into the world of the mentally ill by experiencing schizophrenia-like symptoms herself The book "How to Change Your Mind" discuses this quality of LSD, as well as the history and cultural impact of it and other psychedelics. In it, the author discusses how an early term for psychedelic drugs were "psycho-mimetic" - meaning that they mimic psychological problems such as schizophrenia. This was thought to be a very good use-case for them. Mental Health professionals could take a drug to understand the symptoms of their patients better, and thus treat them better. However, schizophrenia and the LSD-affected mind are fairly different - and many drugs also have this label of "Psychotomimetic", as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotomimetic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotomimetic
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  It had an accepted use in psychiatry for what was called a "model psychosis" ie it would give you a temporary psychosis which would help you understand it. When the government wanted to declare LSD illegal (it has escaped into a "party drug"), they simply declared that the model psychosis idea is wrong and it was scrapped. But I think it has a lot of validity, on LSD and mushrooms I've often thought about going mad and being in prison, and had a lot of empathy for those people.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "...on LSD and mushrooms I've often thought about going mad and being in prison, and had a lot of empathy for those people" The thing is that it's quite common for people in the middle of psychotic episodes to lack what psychologists call "insight" in to their condition. That is, they don't realize that they're mentally ill, and even if they are confronted with the possibility they deny it. So, paradoxically, by your thinking that you may be going mad, you're actually sane in a critical way that a mentally ill person is not. Also, some typical features of schozophrenia (which the "psychotomimetic" view of psychedelics were supposed to evince) turned out not to be present in classical psychedelics (like LSD) -- things such as hearing voices. This is why use of the term "psychotomimetic" for these substances was eventually abandoned.
    - jvm___ 5y ago
      Me doing some task: I'm not an idiot. My 6-year-old: How would you know?
- beebeepka 5y ago
  Like most drugs, it gives you a perspective. It's perfectly fine if that's not your cup of tea. Most people, especially rusty cans, should stay away from stuff like this. It is well known that different perspectives are not only stupid, but also very dangerous. Can't have that
  - WorshipTheState 5y ago
- bfuller 5y ago
  In the late 50s/early sixties (not sure on the timeframe,) my father was involved in experiments giving (then legal) sandoz LSD to schizophrenic people, and also experimenting with teaching them tai chi. The studies were inconclusive, with 1/3 of the patients experiencing little or no benefit, 1/3 experiencing some or great benefit, and 1/3 experiencing negative effects. The research was eventually abandoned, however there were some positive findings teaching people with downs syndrome tai chi.
saiya-jin 5y ago
Not only Bulgaria, in Czechoslovakia similar tests were done by the army in 70s with expected results [1]. I am not surprised - a powerful unknown item is discovered, so power structures take notice and do some digging. Btw Czech Stanislav Grof mentioned in article is/was a big name in clinical research of LSD. He later moved to US. He also has some good screen time in great documentary about LSD invention by Hofmann - The Substance: Albert Hofmann's LSD [2] Basically if Timothy Leary didn't abuse LSD so blatantly in everybody's face for so long, it might not have ended up in same category as heroin. Even after 60 years the damage he has done (albeit in good faith, but that doesn't matter much) is not completely reversed. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HXMHdhQL_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HXMHdhQL_8 [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2075352/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2075352/
- scarecrowbob 5y ago
  I personally don't believe the "Leary was an op" trope, but I certainly get why folks do. So much rhetorical damage was done by so few people.
- pvarangot 5y ago
  I don't condone Leary's research protocols, but the whole field was plagued with what is now seen as unethical experimentation back then. Leary was fired from Harvard in 1963, according to Wikipedia, and the Stanford Prison Experiment thing happened in 1971. I really don't vibe with the manic LSD guru personality at all, never did, but the man was a consequence of his time and that kind of research happened all over the place and with all sorts of substances. I think LSD and weed would still be in the same schedule they are not, Leary or not Leary.
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  The government was pretty determined to stamp out any kind of mind altering drug, ignoring the facts and opinions of experts and doctors. That was the case with LSD, it was the case with MDMA, where a lot of people testified to it's value in psychiatric medicine, but were simply ignored. I think Hoffman's essay on the subject is one of the best "LSD my problem child" and is available online.
- 5y ago
victor22 5y ago
You guys know about Mk Ultra by now right?
pmoriarty 5y ago
This is not at all surprising, if you are familiar with the history of psychedelics. At around the same time (and even earlier) similar "state-sanctioned" LSD (and other psychedelic) experimentation was being carried out in the US, Canada, and other parts of Europe. LSD was around this time (and may still remain) the most researched psychoactive compound in history, with thousands of papers written on it. No surprise that there was a lot of research on it all over the world.
dang 5y ago
Discussed at the time (of the article): Early State-Sanctioned LSD Experiments in Communist Bulgaria - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11827622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11827622 - June 2016 (15 comments)

79 points by Hooke 5y ago

My key takeaways from this that I also find thought provoking > according to her findings, LSD cannot actually make one more creative. However, it can make a person “see” letters and words in different colors and experience synesthesia No conclusion for me, I understand that people really want this to happen, I'm skeptical of that particular conclusion while also skeptical of what LSD could actually provide someone, but I'm open to any outcome. > the drug enabled her to gain an insight into the world of the mentally ill by experiencing schizophrenia-like symptoms herself This matches an 'empathy' element that many people say occurs after their usage

whatshisface 5y ago
>This matches an 'empathy' element that many people say occurs after their usage The empathy LSD fans are talking about isn't "yes, I have experienced drug side effects similar to your natural illness," it's something broader than that.
- vmception 5y ago
  yes broader but also includes that.
yathern 5y ago
> the drug enabled her to gain an insight into the world of the mentally ill by experiencing schizophrenia-like symptoms herself The book "How to Change Your Mind" discuses this quality of LSD, as well as the history and cultural impact of it and other psychedelics. In it, the author discusses how an early term for psychedelic drugs were "psycho-mimetic" - meaning that they mimic psychological problems such as schizophrenia. This was thought to be a very good use-case for them. Mental Health professionals could take a drug to understand the symptoms of their patients better, and thus treat them better. However, schizophrenia and the LSD-affected mind are fairly different - and many drugs also have this label of "Psychotomimetic", as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotomimetic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotomimetic
Synaesthesia 5y ago
It had an accepted use in psychiatry for what was called a "model psychosis" ie it would give you a temporary psychosis which would help you understand it. When the government wanted to declare LSD illegal (it has escaped into a "party drug"), they simply declared that the model psychosis idea is wrong and it was scrapped. But I think it has a lot of validity, on LSD and mushrooms I've often thought about going mad and being in prison, and had a lot of empathy for those people.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "...on LSD and mushrooms I've often thought about going mad and being in prison, and had a lot of empathy for those people" The thing is that it's quite common for people in the middle of psychotic episodes to lack what psychologists call "insight" in to their condition. That is, they don't realize that they're mentally ill, and even if they are confronted with the possibility they deny it. So, paradoxically, by your thinking that you may be going mad, you're actually sane in a critical way that a mentally ill person is not. Also, some typical features of schozophrenia (which the "psychotomimetic" view of psychedelics were supposed to evince) turned out not to be present in classical psychedelics (like LSD) -- things such as hearing voices. This is why use of the term "psychotomimetic" for these substances was eventually abandoned.
  - jvm___ 5y ago
    Me doing some task: I'm not an idiot. My 6-year-old: How would you know?
beebeepka 5y ago
Like most drugs, it gives you a perspective. It's perfectly fine if that's not your cup of tea. Most people, especially rusty cans, should stay away from stuff like this. It is well known that different perspectives are not only stupid, but also very dangerous. Can't have that
- WorshipTheState 5y ago
bfuller 5y ago
In the late 50s/early sixties (not sure on the timeframe,) my father was involved in experiments giving (then legal) sandoz LSD to schizophrenic people, and also experimenting with teaching them tai chi. The studies were inconclusive, with 1/3 of the patients experiencing little or no benefit, 1/3 experiencing some or great benefit, and 1/3 experiencing negative effects. The research was eventually abandoned, however there were some positive findings teaching people with downs syndrome tai chi.

saiya-jin 5y ago

Not only Bulgaria, in Czechoslovakia similar tests were done by the army in 70s with expected results [1]. I am not surprised - a powerful unknown item is discovered, so power structures take notice and do some digging. Btw Czech Stanislav Grof mentioned in article is/was a big name in clinical research of LSD. He later moved to US. He also has some good screen time in great documentary about LSD invention by Hofmann - The Substance: Albert Hofmann's LSD [2] Basically if Timothy Leary didn't abuse LSD so blatantly in everybody's face for so long, it might not have ended up in same category as heroin. Even after 60 years the damage he has done (albeit in good faith, but that doesn't matter much) is not completely reversed. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HXMHdhQL_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HXMHdhQL_8 [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2075352/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2075352/

scarecrowbob 5y ago
I personally don't believe the "Leary was an op" trope, but I certainly get why folks do. So much rhetorical damage was done by so few people.
pvarangot 5y ago
I don't condone Leary's research protocols, but the whole field was plagued with what is now seen as unethical experimentation back then. Leary was fired from Harvard in 1963, according to Wikipedia, and the Stanford Prison Experiment thing happened in 1971. I really don't vibe with the manic LSD guru personality at all, never did, but the man was a consequence of his time and that kind of research happened all over the place and with all sorts of substances. I think LSD and weed would still be in the same schedule they are not, Leary or not Leary.
Synaesthesia 5y ago
The government was pretty determined to stamp out any kind of mind altering drug, ignoring the facts and opinions of experts and doctors. That was the case with LSD, it was the case with MDMA, where a lot of people testified to it's value in psychiatric medicine, but were simply ignored. I think Hoffman's essay on the subject is one of the best "LSD my problem child" and is available online.
5y ago

victor22 5y ago

You guys know about Mk Ultra by now right?

pmoriarty 5y ago

This is not at all surprising, if you are familiar with the history of psychedelics. At around the same time (and even earlier) similar "state-sanctioned" LSD (and other psychedelic) experimentation was being carried out in the US, Canada, and other parts of Europe. LSD was around this time (and may still remain) the most researched psychoactive compound in history, with thousands of papers written on it. No surprise that there was a lot of research on it all over the world.

dang 5y ago

Discussed at the time (of the article): Early State-Sanctioned LSD Experiments in Communist Bulgaria - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11827622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11827622 - June 2016 (15 comments)