5 ms·

It’ll be interesting to see whether converts can stop the decline of the Zoroastrian religion. Currently, the Zoroastrian Parsi community in India is in danger

by ummonk 5y ago

It’ll be interesting to see whether converts can stop the decline of the Zoroastrian religion. Currently, the Zoroastrian Parsi community in India is in danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates. It’s something that Hindu nationalists are rather concerned about, but it’s hard to reverse demographic decline even with government support. Increasing outmarriages by Parsis won’t help things either.

sumedh 5y ago
> danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates. The kid of a Zoroastrian mother and non-Zoroastrian father is also not considered to be Zoroastrian.
- ffwszgf 5y ago
  Interesting that it’s the opposite in Judaism. A child of a Jewish mother and a Zoroastrian father would belong to both religions.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    Is this actually possible? I am say agnostic myself, but my understanding would be that every major religion considers it a elementary sin if you don't worship their given God, not just any random god. Also isn't 'belonging' to given religion done in some form of baptism or other introduction to it?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - throaway46546 5y ago
    Matrilineal descent does make a lot of sense. It is a lot simpler to determine maternity vs paternity.
- glitchc 5y ago
  Certainly an outdated rule that needs to change.
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    Can you elaborate? I'd want to understand why some Zoroastrians hold that view, before claiming that it's incorrect.
    - glitchc 5y ago
      Clarification: The below applies only to Zoroastrians in the Indian sub-continent. It's a combination of conservatism and patriarchy at the religious leadership level. Originally, the rules were clear for either gender: If a Zoroastrian married outside the faith, their child was not Zoroastrian anymore. However, certain influential families were able to gain acceptance for children where the father was Zoroastrian and the mother was not. The priests, however, refused to accept the converse, even though most children learn to practice their faith from their mothers. This issue has bifurcated the community between the conservatives who agree with the priests, and liberals who support Zoroastrians marrying outside the community. Zoroastrians are largely Westernized, ergo women are educated, have careers and choose their own spouses, and women have long since complained that this system is unfair to them. Some priests, particularly in North America, UK and Australia, are espousing the liberal philosophy and will conduct the initiation ceremony for any child as long as one spouse is Zoroastrian. In addition, there are also those who feel the situation is dire enough such that conversions should be allowed again.
  - 988747 5y ago
    Yeah, because that's what religions are known for: eagerly changing their own rules.
    - tomjakubowski 5y ago
      I mean yeah, surviving religions have done that quite a lot. It's part of what drives schisms.
legutierr 5y ago
Why are Hindu nationalists concerned about the fertility rates of the Parsi community?
- ummonk 5y ago
  There is natural affinity between Zoroastriansim and Hinduism due to the related roots of Vedic and early Iranic religion (fire rituals in particular are a striking similarity). Additionally, Hindu nationalism is driven by a perceived need to defend against religions that seek to convert the world (namely, Christianity and Islam). As such, Zoroastrianism is seen as a religion that needed sheltering from Islam. Finally, specifically to the fertility rate issue, there is often fear amongst Hindu nationalists that differences in fertility rates will lead to Islamic demographic ascendancy, so it's natural to apply the same logic to the declining Parsi community.
  - fooker 5y ago
    >differences in fertility rates will lead to Islamic demographic ascendancy That seems mathematically sound. What am I missing?
    - hoseja 5y ago
      Stop noticing things.
    - naravara 5y ago
      Straight line extrapolations of present trends indefinitely into the future are rarely reliable. Plus the demographics are generally driven more by poverty and access to family planning resources moreso than the religious/demographic warfare angle nationalists tend to lean to. In other words, if demographic balance was really the concern the most effective proven way to address it would be to invest heavily in education and healthcare in the community with above-average fertility. But instead the proposed policies always insist on more and harsher crackdowns on the minority group, which will be counterproductive at best.
JetAlone 5y ago
They'll delay the decline a bit but I think they'd need to see a surprising turnaround baby boom among converts on top of conversion rates in order to cancel it out? We'll have to see.

by ummonk 5y ago

sumedh 5y ago

> danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates. The kid of a Zoroastrian mother and non-Zoroastrian father is also not considered to be Zoroastrian.

ffwszgf 5y ago
Interesting that it’s the opposite in Judaism. A child of a Jewish mother and a Zoroastrian father would belong to both religions.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Is this actually possible? I am say agnostic myself, but my understanding would be that every major religion considers it a elementary sin if you don't worship their given God, not just any random god. Also isn't 'belonging' to given religion done in some form of baptism or other introduction to it?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- throaway46546 5y ago
  Matrilineal descent does make a lot of sense. It is a lot simpler to determine maternity vs paternity.
glitchc 5y ago
Certainly an outdated rule that needs to change.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Can you elaborate? I'd want to understand why some Zoroastrians hold that view, before claiming that it's incorrect.
  - glitchc 5y ago
    Clarification: The below applies only to Zoroastrians in the Indian sub-continent. It's a combination of conservatism and patriarchy at the religious leadership level. Originally, the rules were clear for either gender: If a Zoroastrian married outside the faith, their child was not Zoroastrian anymore. However, certain influential families were able to gain acceptance for children where the father was Zoroastrian and the mother was not. The priests, however, refused to accept the converse, even though most children learn to practice their faith from their mothers. This issue has bifurcated the community between the conservatives who agree with the priests, and liberals who support Zoroastrians marrying outside the community. Zoroastrians are largely Westernized, ergo women are educated, have careers and choose their own spouses, and women have long since complained that this system is unfair to them. Some priests, particularly in North America, UK and Australia, are espousing the liberal philosophy and will conduct the initiation ceremony for any child as long as one spouse is Zoroastrian. In addition, there are also those who feel the situation is dire enough such that conversions should be allowed again.
- 988747 5y ago
  Yeah, because that's what religions are known for: eagerly changing their own rules.
  - tomjakubowski 5y ago
    I mean yeah, surviving religions have done that quite a lot. It's part of what drives schisms.

legutierr 5y ago

Why are Hindu nationalists concerned about the fertility rates of the Parsi community?

ummonk 5y ago
There is natural affinity between Zoroastriansim and Hinduism due to the related roots of Vedic and early Iranic religion (fire rituals in particular are a striking similarity). Additionally, Hindu nationalism is driven by a perceived need to defend against religions that seek to convert the world (namely, Christianity and Islam). As such, Zoroastrianism is seen as a religion that needed sheltering from Islam. Finally, specifically to the fertility rate issue, there is often fear amongst Hindu nationalists that differences in fertility rates will lead to Islamic demographic ascendancy, so it's natural to apply the same logic to the declining Parsi community.
- fooker 5y ago
  >differences in fertility rates will lead to Islamic demographic ascendancy That seems mathematically sound. What am I missing?
  - hoseja 5y ago
    Stop noticing things.
  - naravara 5y ago
    Straight line extrapolations of present trends indefinitely into the future are rarely reliable. Plus the demographics are generally driven more by poverty and access to family planning resources moreso than the religious/demographic warfare angle nationalists tend to lean to. In other words, if demographic balance was really the concern the most effective proven way to address it would be to invest heavily in education and healthcare in the community with above-average fertility. But instead the proposed policies always insist on more and harsher crackdowns on the minority group, which will be counterproductive at best.

JetAlone 5y ago

They'll delay the decline a bit but I think they'd need to see a surprising turnaround baby boom among converts on top of conversion rates in order to cancel it out? We'll have to see.