12 ms·
Zoroastrians make a comeback in northern Iraq
- Wohlf 5y agoThis seems like a means to introduce atheism/agnosticism in a more culturally acceptable way, I may be reading too much in to it though.
- zozbot234 5y agoZoroastrians are not atheist, they acknowledge Ahura Mazda as a god. (Ahura Mazda is also mentioned in the Vedas, as Mitra-Varuna.)
- Ar-Curunir 5y agoMore correctly, Mitra-Varuna is a compound referring to two independent gods, Mitra and Varuna. Mitra is also mentioned in the Avesta, separate from Ahura Mazda, and in a similar compound form. This has led some to believe that Varuna is to be identified with Ahura Mazda in the proto-Indo-Iranian religion, but this is debated.
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoMitra also appears in Manichaeism. The name Mehr or Meher comes from Mitra. Vedic Mitra was invoked along with other Vedic gods as far away as current day Syria/Turkey [..] Indic Mitra is first attested in a 14th century BCE Mitanni inscription in which an Indo-Aryan king of Mitanni invokes the gods Mitra, Indra, Varuna, and the Nasatyas as guarantors of his sworn obligations.[..] Also in the treaties signed by Mittanis and the Hittites. Mitra always appears with Varuna. In the beginning of Rig Veda, Varuna is the king of the Vedic gods and is resplendent and benevolent..but towards the end, he loses his luster and becomes a minor god..mean, dull and almost cruel as Indra becomes the new head after slaying Ahi , the serpent demon who captured Apas, the water goddess(apam-napat or apa also appears as a Zoroastrian deity) One theory is that this event of Indra rescuing apa from ahi by releasing her frozen waters(ahi froze the waters and indira used his lightning bolt/thunderbolt weapon vajra to melt the ice so she will flow down back from the frozen state) can be times to one of the ice ages ..and younger dryas event + the sedimentation layer might have been after that..which would have been due to thehastened melting of the ice when the comets burned down..causing the ‘great flooding’..an event that is recorded in every world mythology. Back to Ahura Mazda/Varuna split.. there were two priests classes..brighus and angiras..angiras took some books and went east..the brighus kept some of the Bhargava texts. Even today, the Vedas are bit complete and many parts of it are considered ‘lost’ Shri Jatindra Mohan Chatterji argues that Zend Avesta is the Bhargava Veda text. He asserts that the Bhargava Veda the missing Book of the Bhrigu Angirasa Samhita (The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathustra – Published by The Parsi Zoroastrian Association, Calcutta, 1967). The Indo-Iranians likely became divided because of differences in opinion about methods of worship and accent on certain principles. Likely leading to the split of the original Aryan land into India and Iran..east of river Sindhu became the land of Hindus.
- Ar-Curunir 5y ago> Shri Jatindra Mohan Chatterji argues that Zend Avesta is the Bhargava Veda text. He asserts that the Bhargava Veda the missing Book of the Bhrigu Angirasa Samhita (The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathustra – Published by The Parsi Zoroastrian Association, Calcutta, 1967). This is unlikely, as the the Vedas were composed after the Indian-Iranian split, and the last common ancestor of Avestan and Vedic is much before that.
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoSource?
- xaedes 5y ago> Ahi , the serpent demon who captured Apas, the water goddess > ahi froze the waters As for the serpent motive, I think it relates to the movement and shape of glaciers. Here are some pictures. Snake-like path of a swiss glacier: [1] The end of a glacier which (with skimming) may look like a snake head releasing streams of melt water: [2] In these ~110 year old illustrations glaciers are depicted with weird lion head and sluggish lizard body: [3] Ahi seems to be Azi Dahâka in Zoroastrianism, which also has a lot of long-winter themes [4]: "The world was imagined as lasting a long year of twelve millenniums. There had been an old myth, connected with that notion, which made the world end in a frightful winter, to be succeeded by an eternal spring, when the blessed would come down from the Vara of Yima to repeople the earth. But as storm was the ordinary and more dramatic form of the strife, there was another version, according to which the world ended in a storm, and this version became the definitive one. The serpent, Azi Dahâka, let loose, takes hold of the world again. As the temporary disappearance of the light was often mythically described either as the sleeping of the god, or as his absence, or death [...]" This story about the Vara is also super interesting and similar to the Ark story, though not with a big flood but a long winter and "foul frost". The numbers make more sense, because they gather over a thousand "seeds of men and women" instead of only a single family. [5] [1] https://www.swisseduc.ch/glaciers/glossary/valley-glacier-en.html https://www.swisseduc.ch/glaciers/glossary/valley-glacier-en... [2] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CTPcUSfYG3c/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CTPcUSfYG3c/maxresdefault.jpg [3] https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2018/04/02/culture-history-glaciers-alps/ https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2018/04/02/culture-history... [4] https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0405.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0405.htm [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29802590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29802590
- brendoelfrendo 5y agoI guess it seems like a way to introduce Zoroastrianism in a culturally acceptable way, though the article mentions that it's not very culturally acceptable yet. I guess I don't get why you would think atheism/agnosticism is the end game.
- csomar 5y agoThen they'd push for atheism instead of this. I agree with the other commenter, there is a nationalist aspect to this. Atheism has gained serious steam in the Arab world due to ISIS. Especially in Syria, Iraq and some in North Africa.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
- dang 5y agoSince you've continued to use HN primarily for political battle after we asked you to stop, I've banned the account. This doesn't have to do with your specific politics—it would be just the same the other way round. Using the site primarily for this purpose isn't allowed because it destroys the curious conversation that HN is supposed to be for. More explanation at these links, if anyone wants it: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20bimodal%20battle&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- amznbyebyebye 5y agoCan you please share more details on the boundary between “intellectually curious” and “politically/ideologically charged”?
- pvg 5y agoThe two links of previous moderation comments are pretty much about that.
- dang 5y agoThe short answer is that they can and do overlap, but the primary use of the site should be for intellectual curiosity, and accounts using HN primarily for political battle have very different characteristics than that. Besides the links in my parent comment, there are past explanations here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23959679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23959679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... If, after reading some of those, you still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to try to answer it. Just please familiarize yourself with the material first, because all the obvious points have been pretty well established for years now—at least I think they have.
- hazza_n_dazza 5y agoOne person is not a "comeback". Its a non-article.
- geuis 5y agoIf you read the article, it mentions an uptick of thousands of people converting. Stories generally are told about individuals as a way to relate to larger movements.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y agoThe article seems to suggest there are a few thousand Zoroastrians currently in the area: According to Awat Taieb, co-founder of the Yasna association that since 2014 has promoted Zoroastrianism in Kurdistan and also representative of the faith at the Kurdistan government, about 15,000 people registered with the organisation so far.
- dang 5y ago"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hapless 5y agoZoroastrianism isn't typically a conversion religion, nor is Yazidism, one of the indigenous religions of the Kurdish peoples. I suspect this "Yasna association" and their placement of a Reuters article are both efforts by Kurdish nationalists to draw members to their cause. In this case, people who happen to have some negative feelings about Islam after the recent series of conflicts might find a fused religious-nationalist appeal more interesting than a nationalist appeal alone. In any case it's hard to see why this is news -- or how it in any way relates to Zoroastrianism as it exists in Iran and India.
- zozbot234 5y agoThere are "reformist" Zoroaustrians who do accept conversion as valid, though you're correct that the more conservative and traditionalist branches do not. Moreover Zoroaustrians have always been around in Central Asia, even though the highest numbers for the religion are found in Persia and India.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y agoHeh, sorry, but that is such a delightful typo in your comment: "Zoroaustrians". Austrian fans of Zoro, perhaps? :)
- JetAlone 5y agoYes, and they had a schism between "One Piece" Zoro and "Legend of Zorro" Zorro :P
- yeetaccount4 5y agoIt’s the southern branch. Different constellations.
- 1_player 5y agoNope, those would be the Zoroaustralians.
- Daub 5y agoThe only Zoroastrian I know of was Freddy Mercury.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ZanyProgrammer 5y agoLt Ilia.
- fareesh 5y agoNow you know me too Do you folks in the west offer diversity funding to Zoroastrian founders? We are provably a dying breed.
- veltas 5y agoReminds me of modern paganism.
- Taniwha 5y agoIt's very much not modern, it's one of the oldest religions around - there's some evidence that the (younger) Abrahamic religions have inherited ideas from it, so maybe not so 'pagan' either
- zozbot234 5y agoIt does preserve quite a few elements from the religion of Proto-Indo-Aryans, which means it shares significant ancestry both with Western Paganism and with Vedic religion. The myth of the primeval cow is one of these elements, being found not just in Indian religion but also, e.g. among the Norse.
- ummonk 5y agoPaganism is old too. Just as modern pagans take inspiration from traditional pagan religions, but have a modern bend to their revival, the same thing appears to be happening here - the Zoroastrianism he adopted seems to be a modern adaptation rather than traditional Zoroastrianism practiced by surviving Zoroastrian communities.
- throwawaygal7 5y agoThere's actually not a lot of evidence for this- it's a theory of comparative religion studies which has little support. For instance, it may be appealing to say Christianity has drawn from the zoroastrian idea of a good and bad after life and final judgment, but we find those themes in Egyptian religion as well... Additionally, the resurrection of the dead is a development of Judaism that happened relatively late and was denied by various sects in antiquity but became mainstreamed in Christianity and modern orthodox judaism.
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoChristianity/Abrahamic religions can all be traced back to the writings of Akkadian priests
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ummonk 5y agoIt’ll be interesting to see whether converts can stop the decline of the Zoroastrian religion. Currently, the Zoroastrian Parsi community in India is in danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates. It’s something that Hindu nationalists are rather concerned about, but it’s hard to reverse demographic decline even with government support. Increasing outmarriages by Parsis won’t help things either.
- sumedh 5y ago> danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates. The kid of a Zoroastrian mother and non-Zoroastrian father is also not considered to be Zoroastrian.
- ffwszgf 5y agoInteresting that it’s the opposite in Judaism. A child of a Jewish mother and a Zoroastrian father would belong to both religions.
- saiya-jin 5y agoIs this actually possible? I am say agnostic myself, but my understanding would be that every major religion considers it a elementary sin if you don't worship their given God, not just any random god. Also isn't 'belonging' to given religion done in some form of baptism or other introduction to it?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- throaway46546 5y agoMatrilineal descent does make a lot of sense. It is a lot simpler to determine maternity vs paternity.
- glitchc 5y agoCertainly an outdated rule that needs to change.
- Rickthedick 5y agoAwesome, pray for the middle east. My family traveled to America during the ottoman genocides in WW1 and given the history before and after that, it seems to me it will never find peace. I hope so
- arisAlexis 5y agoZoroastrianism would be a very peaceful way for the region compared to Hard-core Islam.
- saiya-jin 5y agoI would be careful with such assumptions. Even most tolerant religions can end up with population doing quite significant warfare, genocides and other horrible crimes. Sample case - buddhist armies conquering places like Ladakh in distant past. or a bitter merciless civil war between buddhist majority and hindu minority in Sri Lanka where both sides committed atrocities. Islam is very tolerant at its core, but many religions are twisted badly from their original intents, power/violence craving individuals being able to find alternative interpretations to many well-intended ideas.
- arisAlexis 5y agoWhile what you say generally is true, the fact that Islam calls for conversion of others while Zoroastrianism does not is a very important difference for the peace of the region.
- peter303 5y agoZoroastrism isnt strongly into conversion, which in fact is prohibited in India. But there are a growing number of secularized descendants who return to the old centers to learn the old knowledge. There was a story on such in major magazine recently. But I cant locate the reference.
- sofixa 5y agoTIL Zoroastrianism is still a thing. I knew about it from the Crusader Kings games, but for some reason i thought it was dead.
- UIUC_06 5y agoFunny, just a couple weeks ago a friend recommended Gore Vidal's historical novel Creation, where the author is a grandson of Zoroaster. He manages to meet Socrates, the Buddha, and Confucius, which was actually possible at a certain point. (I don't like Vidal's writing, which I find to be mostly attitude, but YMMV.)
- hdivider 5y agoI would bet Socrates is the strangest in that bunch, since he claims to possess no knowledge (episteme) at all. At one point, he says he is therefore the wisest of all, even though he sees wisdom (sophos) as something that humans can only strive towards and never truly attain.
- schoen 5y agoI think you mean sophia; sophos is the adjective meaning 'wise'.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- posterboy 5y agoI think Socrates is only known from Plato's writing and possibly a rhethorical device. I'm only interested in the origin and meaning of the sokratic paradox and am hopeful that it has a prehistory. Did you know that οὐκ, which may be translated as "not", is composed of (un-) + ever + what (a pattern also seen in Maltesen for negation), so one of the associated quotes could be read as "I know ever-what knowing". English and German wikipedia present this slightly differently, it is confusing. See wiktionary yourself for the alleged etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CE%BA https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CE%BA
- Amezarak 5y agoSocrates is known from multiple sources, the most famous which aside from Plato is probably Xenophon.
- james-redwood 5y agoThis isn’t only happening among Kurds. Far more often, there are Iranian converts from Islam, who were often just secular before. It ties into revolting against the current regime and rejecting Islam as a foreign concept in Iran entirely.
- cies 5y agoAnd push back against ugly cultural practices otherwise prescribed like circumcision.
- henearkr 5y agoZoroaster (also Zarathustra) is also the character at the center of the famous book by Nietzsche "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" (I recommend it), which itself inspired the symphonic poem (with the same name -- I recommend to listen to it entirely too) from Richard Strauss, that everyone knows as the opening theme of Kubric's "2001: A Space Odyssey" (that I recommend too).
- krylon 5y agoWhile I recommend Nietzsche's book, too (I think it's one of the most beautiful works written in German just from the perspective of language), I doubt his character has much in common with the original Zoroaster beyond the name. (I know next to nothing about Zoroastrianism, but Nietzsche was not big on religion.)
- henearkr 5y agoThank you. I really thought Nietzsche had taken the real Zoroaster as basis, but you're right (as well as the other sibling commentator), it seems to be just the name.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- keiferski 5y agoNietzsche specifically chose to name his character Zarathustra because he (Nietzsche) viewed him as being the first person to introduce the concept of Good and Evil. Thus he should be the one to transcend it, according to Nietzsche. In other words, he chose the name because it represented exactly the mentality he wanted to overcome.
- henearkr 5y agoThanks. I thought it was more deeply related, but I was wrong.
- 0dayz 5y agoI may be pointing in the wrong direction here, but overall I've noticed a small but noticeable trend with people from less vibrant version of Christianity (mainly the "unchanged" western form of Christianity) becoming interested/invested in old per-christian culture/traditions/spirituality. While a definitive explanation for it has not been made, I think the biggest reason for it is as the article explains, in that these older traditions is a lot more open and flexible ironically enough because it's been the only way for it to be taken serious in modern times (in essence that the myths and legends are merely stories or fair tales told to teach a certain concept). But also because these old religions is much less of a burden for the believer both in terms of what a "good" believer is but also because lack of clashes with society's expectations and norms.
- throwawaygal7 5y agoI think you're onto something, there has been a trend from protestantism to apostolic Christianity among some. For instance, various conservative mainline protestants have become Catholic, and the Orthodox have a western branch for protestants who want to come over. Then again, this trend would seem to be pretty old news. I think the comparison between the old and new forms of Christianity you're making is a bit ... mistaken. It's hard to say the older forms require less from their believers than the protestant sects do.
- 0dayz 5y agoWhen I meant "old" I meant the "hardline" Christianity that deems any reformation at best as straying away from the gospel and at worst blasphemy. A lot of the Christianity in western Europe has had quite the reformation to accommodate new norms in society.