10 ms·

AU Border Seizes Phones

45 points by hazza_n_dazza 5y ago

josephcsible 5y ago
> ensure their device is encrypted with a strong passcode Why does this matter, if Australia will just force you to tell them what it is?
ejb999 5y ago
Phones need to have two passwords; one that when you unlock it just has the built-in apps and a small selection of your emails/images that you don't mind other people seeing. Second password would actually unlock the entire phone and all files. Truecrypt used to have this feature (when it was around). Only the second password would actually open the full encrypted storage - first password - which you could give under duress would only 'see' fake stuff that you put there; always thought that was a clever feature - never had a need to use it myself.
- olliej 5y ago
  It seems like they would simply compel you to provide the true code. Presumably if you are sufficiently concerned your only option would be to erase your devices prior to crossing the border?
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    I seem to recall that wiping your device is the current advice in some contexts. Restore from a backup after you arrive at your destination. Rinse and repeat on the way home.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      Because you think they won't install some sort of firmware for siphoning data? Just get a new device or leave your device at home
      - voakbasda 5y ago
        If this is the new status quo, then I am done traveling internationally. Unfortunately, I have to believe that such an action would pose a pretty big risk of exposing their operation. Not impossible and definitely a real risk for high value targets, but it is probably not a very probable threat for the average citizen.
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        There are plenty of mitigations you can take, until they start requiring passwords to email and other SaaS at least
      - hollerith 5y ago
        Am pretty sure that no one can install firmware on a modern iPhone except Apple.
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        Not that I use any apple hardware in the first place but I'm definitely not going to trust that assertion. Just buy a shitty burner
        olliej 5y ago
        Apple details how the boot chain works in the platform security document. The early boot governed by an erase install is stripped all the way back to that. There is no “firmware” at that point, it’s literally a boot rom, and the only thing that can be installed from that point is an apple signed binary. If you don’t trust that assertion then there is no system you can trust, because at that point your threat model is people injecting malware at the fab.
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        Has Apple's platform security document been independently verified?
steelstraw 5y ago
It's like they are trying to destroy their tourism industry: Warren advised people flying into Australia not to have anything on their device that they don’t want authorities accessing, and to ensure their device is encrypted with a strong passcode. “Once they take your device out of your sight, you should assume it’s completely compromised and they have a copy of everything that was on it, and act accordingly,” he said. James said the incident made him rethink what he would do next time he travels out of Australia. “I think what I’ll just do next time is as we fly into Sydney, I’ll just press the factory reset button on the phone and when they pull me up again, I’ll be handing them a fresh clean factory reset.”
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  "Consider the device compromised" means more than just "they have your data" Compromised means that they will have anything you put on that device after that point. Meaning it should go straight into the shredder and go buy a new one. Doesn't matter if its factory reset or not, it needs to go in the trash
version_five 5y ago
This made me wonder about cloud services or servers: would a border guard be smart enough (or care enough) to understand the difference between a device password and the password for an online account. If you just brought something that was a thin client, do you risk punishment for not providing additional login info? What worries me most about this kind of thing is being in a situation where some thug is asking you to do something that's either not possible, or clearly outside of the intent of the law, but you're at their mercy. Re Australia, this is just the latest in a long list of many reasons I'll never go there. As someone else said, it will be interesting to see if tourism resumes or if most people will not risk trying to go their anymore given their recent behavior
- techdragon 5y ago
  I used to think it would be awesome to move to America for some startup job and live the good life... till I learned about healthcare and realised I didn't have it so bad in Australia not having to worry about bankruptcy for a broken leg. Now with the slow agonising slide of Australia into technocratic tyranny... and I'm not exaggerating some otherwise sensible policies to do with COVID or anything... I'm talking about things like the Assistance and Access bill, data retention laws, the lack of usefully constitutionally protected rights, border policies like this, state governments banning basically harmless gel blasters while paintball remains legal, the bizarre online privacy law changes around the "eSafety Commission", efforts to ban cash transactions of $10000 or more, the currently underway efforts to "reform" the surveillance legislation giving them powers to modify data and take over accounts of anyone as they see fit (since theres no oversight mechanism beyond "trust we do our jobs")... the entire damn country has gone beyond "nanny state" and is getting worse every time I look at it... But I'm still not seriously considering moving... Pre-Brexit I would have been seriously looking at moving to the UK by now since I'd probably have just spent most of my time in the rest of the EU and could avoid the worst of the UK's eccentricities... But Brexit... The USA remains a non-starter due to the insanity that is healthcare in the USA.
  - version_five 5y ago
    I'm Canadian so judge my opinion accordingly. If you're employed / well off, the US has a world class healthcare system. Canada's public healthcare is not very good, and we have no real private options. People who can afford to routinely go the the US for tests and treatment. We (canadians) like to gloat about our great system, and maybe it's ok for some things, but bottom line, no matter your personal priorities or ability to pay, you're in the same line for government run services as everyone else. Some people may agree with that, but probably less so when they can't get the help they need. I know there are lots of insurance shenanigans I'm probably glossing over, but I still wouldn't rule out the US on the grounds of healthcare if you have a good job / career
908B64B197 5y ago
Of course, it's in Australia.
- hsx 5y ago
  The US does the same thing, as do many other countries I’m sure.
wait_a_minute 5y ago
Wtf is going on in Australia over the last two years? They’re devolving into a tyranny.
- angrykangaroo 5y ago
- 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
  Privacy violations and ridiculous anti-encryption laws have been going on here in AU for a little over 4 years now I'd say.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  China. Lots of blatant plundering of water and natural resources, lots of political manipulation and Chinese money used to inch Australia toward authoritarian compatibility with Chinese global aspirations. Australia doesn't have enough people, wealth, or apparently the political will to oppose China.
nitn 5y ago
medo-bear 5y ago
More and more we see Australia trying to out China in authoritarianism. However, at least China (and Russia for that matter) doesn't hide that it is authoritarian. People from Eastern states are very much aware of this and act accordingly. On the other hand, I wonder how Australians perceive this situation, and how much Goethe's old adage, “the best slave is the one who thinks he is free,” applies.

45 points by hazza_n_dazza 5y ago

> ensure their device is encrypted with a strong passcode Why does this matter, if Australia will just force you to tell them what it is?

ejb999 5y ago

Phones need to have two passwords; one that when you unlock it just has the built-in apps and a small selection of your emails/images that you don't mind other people seeing. Second password would actually unlock the entire phone and all files. Truecrypt used to have this feature (when it was around). Only the second password would actually open the full encrypted storage - first password - which you could give under duress would only 'see' fake stuff that you put there; always thought that was a clever feature - never had a need to use it myself.

olliej 5y ago
It seems like they would simply compel you to provide the true code. Presumably if you are sufficiently concerned your only option would be to erase your devices prior to crossing the border?
- voakbasda 5y ago
  I seem to recall that wiping your device is the current advice in some contexts. Restore from a backup after you arrive at your destination. Rinse and repeat on the way home.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Because you think they won't install some sort of firmware for siphoning data? Just get a new device or leave your device at home
    - voakbasda 5y ago
      If this is the new status quo, then I am done traveling internationally. Unfortunately, I have to believe that such an action would pose a pretty big risk of exposing their operation. Not impossible and definitely a real risk for high value targets, but it is probably not a very probable threat for the average citizen.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
        There are plenty of mitigations you can take, until they start requiring passwords to email and other SaaS at least
    - hollerith 5y ago
      Am pretty sure that no one can install firmware on a modern iPhone except Apple.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
        Not that I use any apple hardware in the first place but I'm definitely not going to trust that assertion. Just buy a shitty burner
        olliej 5y ago
        Apple details how the boot chain works in the platform security document. The early boot governed by an erase install is stripped all the way back to that. There is no “firmware” at that point, it’s literally a boot rom, and the only thing that can be installed from that point is an apple signed binary. If you don’t trust that assertion then there is no system you can trust, because at that point your threat model is people injecting malware at the fab.
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        Has Apple's platform security document been independently verified?

steelstraw 5y ago

It's like they are trying to destroy their tourism industry: Warren advised people flying into Australia not to have anything on their device that they don’t want authorities accessing, and to ensure their device is encrypted with a strong passcode. “Once they take your device out of your sight, you should assume it’s completely compromised and they have a copy of everything that was on it, and act accordingly,” he said. James said the incident made him rethink what he would do next time he travels out of Australia. “I think what I’ll just do next time is as we fly into Sydney, I’ll just press the factory reset button on the phone and when they pull me up again, I’ll be handing them a fresh clean factory reset.”

netizen-936824 5y ago
"Consider the device compromised" means more than just "they have your data" Compromised means that they will have anything you put on that device after that point. Meaning it should go straight into the shredder and go buy a new one. Doesn't matter if its factory reset or not, it needs to go in the trash

version_five 5y ago

This made me wonder about cloud services or servers: would a border guard be smart enough (or care enough) to understand the difference between a device password and the password for an online account. If you just brought something that was a thin client, do you risk punishment for not providing additional login info? What worries me most about this kind of thing is being in a situation where some thug is asking you to do something that's either not possible, or clearly outside of the intent of the law, but you're at their mercy. Re Australia, this is just the latest in a long list of many reasons I'll never go there. As someone else said, it will be interesting to see if tourism resumes or if most people will not risk trying to go their anymore given their recent behavior

techdragon 5y ago
I used to think it would be awesome to move to America for some startup job and live the good life... till I learned about healthcare and realised I didn't have it so bad in Australia not having to worry about bankruptcy for a broken leg. Now with the slow agonising slide of Australia into technocratic tyranny... and I'm not exaggerating some otherwise sensible policies to do with COVID or anything... I'm talking about things like the Assistance and Access bill, data retention laws, the lack of usefully constitutionally protected rights, border policies like this, state governments banning basically harmless gel blasters while paintball remains legal, the bizarre online privacy law changes around the "eSafety Commission", efforts to ban cash transactions of $10000 or more, the currently underway efforts to "reform" the surveillance legislation giving them powers to modify data and take over accounts of anyone as they see fit (since theres no oversight mechanism beyond "trust we do our jobs")... the entire damn country has gone beyond "nanny state" and is getting worse every time I look at it... But I'm still not seriously considering moving... Pre-Brexit I would have been seriously looking at moving to the UK by now since I'd probably have just spent most of my time in the rest of the EU and could avoid the worst of the UK's eccentricities... But Brexit... The USA remains a non-starter due to the insanity that is healthcare in the USA.
- version_five 5y ago
  I'm Canadian so judge my opinion accordingly. If you're employed / well off, the US has a world class healthcare system. Canada's public healthcare is not very good, and we have no real private options. People who can afford to routinely go the the US for tests and treatment. We (canadians) like to gloat about our great system, and maybe it's ok for some things, but bottom line, no matter your personal priorities or ability to pay, you're in the same line for government run services as everyone else. Some people may agree with that, but probably less so when they can't get the help they need. I know there are lots of insurance shenanigans I'm probably glossing over, but I still wouldn't rule out the US on the grounds of healthcare if you have a good job / career

908B64B197 5y ago

Of course, it's in Australia.

hsx 5y ago
The US does the same thing, as do many other countries I’m sure.

wait_a_minute 5y ago

Wtf is going on in Australia over the last two years? They’re devolving into a tyranny.

angrykangaroo 5y ago
0xdeadb00f 5y ago
Privacy violations and ridiculous anti-encryption laws have been going on here in AU for a little over 4 years now I'd say.
robbedpeter 5y ago
China. Lots of blatant plundering of water and natural resources, lots of political manipulation and Chinese money used to inch Australia toward authoritarian compatibility with Chinese global aspirations. Australia doesn't have enough people, wealth, or apparently the political will to oppose China.

nitn 5y ago

medo-bear 5y ago

More and more we see Australia trying to out China in authoritarianism. However, at least China (and Russia for that matter) doesn't hide that it is authoritarian. People from Eastern states are very much aware of this and act accordingly. On the other hand, I wonder how Australians perceive this situation, and how much Goethe's old adage, “the best slave is the one who thinks he is free,” applies.