5 ms·

It's an open question [1] along with other safety checks both comptime and runtime [2]. The issue here is a balance of keeping language complexity low while pro

by nyberg 5y ago

It's an open question [1] along with other safety checks both comptime and runtime [2]. The issue here is a balance of keeping language complexity low while providing safety at the same time and not depriving users of control when they know better than the type checker/lifetime analysis. [1]: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/782 https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/782 [2]: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/2301 https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/2301

jolux 5y ago
> not depriving users of control when they know better than the type checker/lifetime analysis. You're never deprived of control though, that's what unsafe is for, and it provides roughly the same level of safety as C or Zig would.
- kprotty 5y ago
  unsafe Rust has its own UB pitfalls that don't exist in C nor Zig, particularly in regards to the lifetimes of references [0] and preserving provenance through experimental apis [1]. [0]: the compiler is allowed to emit extra reads/writes to references so a mut and shared one to the same memory location cant be alive at the same time, across threads, and across sometimes non-obvious scoping rules. [1]: [pointer::set_ptr_value](https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/primitive.pointer.html#method.set_ptr_value https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/primitive.pointer.html#method....) is used by containers like Arc for `from_raw` in order to carry over aliasing, mutability, and other location meta data. unsafe Rust is also less ergonomic when dealing with concepts that go against the borrow checker like Pinning for intrusive memory, ptr::read/write and ManuallyDrop for controlling unorthodox object ownership/lifetime, and MaybeUninit/NonNull for facilitating certain data layout/access optimizations. Such designs often can't be wrapped in safe-Rust without introducing runtime overhead the patterns were used to originally avoid. Languages like Zig and C however make these patterns natural or event pleasant enough to consider it over unsafe Rust.
octoberfranklin 5y ago
This is such a squishy value proposition, which is why people aren't taking Zig seriously. Rust's value proposition is simple: no GC and no undefined behavior. Period. Nothing else has that.
- jibalt 5y ago
  Rust has plenty of undefined behavior: https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/behavior-considered-undefined.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/behavior-considered-unde...
- _vvhw 5y ago
  I don't know, people like Mitchell Hashimoto and Tobi Lütke are taking Zig seriously for systems programming. Coil are also investing in writing a new distributed financial database for Zig—considering the trajectory of the language and the lifetime of our project, it made sense. Of course the swell is early, but waves are what technology is about, and the surfers are there and paddling out. It's a great time to be getting involved, especially for greenfield projects that have some time in themselves to reach stability and don't want to pay a language compiler/complexity tax for the rest of the project's lifetime. You could also throw a dart blindfolded into the Zig community and be pretty sure to hit some seriously talented programmers to learn from. If you're investing in a deep understanding of the language now, I'm pretty sure it will pay off down the line.

by nyberg 5y ago

jolux 5y ago

> not depriving users of control when they know better than the type checker/lifetime analysis. You're never deprived of control though, that's what unsafe is for, and it provides roughly the same level of safety as C or Zig would.

kprotty 5y ago
unsafe Rust has its own UB pitfalls that don't exist in C nor Zig, particularly in regards to the lifetimes of references [0] and preserving provenance through experimental apis [1]. [0]: the compiler is allowed to emit extra reads/writes to references so a mut and shared one to the same memory location cant be alive at the same time, across threads, and across sometimes non-obvious scoping rules. [1]: [pointer::set_ptr_value](https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/primitive.pointer.html#method.set_ptr_value https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/primitive.pointer.html#method....) is used by containers like Arc for `from_raw` in order to carry over aliasing, mutability, and other location meta data. unsafe Rust is also less ergonomic when dealing with concepts that go against the borrow checker like Pinning for intrusive memory, ptr::read/write and ManuallyDrop for controlling unorthodox object ownership/lifetime, and MaybeUninit/NonNull for facilitating certain data layout/access optimizations. Such designs often can't be wrapped in safe-Rust without introducing runtime overhead the patterns were used to originally avoid. Languages like Zig and C however make these patterns natural or event pleasant enough to consider it over unsafe Rust.

octoberfranklin 5y ago

This is such a squishy value proposition, which is why people aren't taking Zig seriously. Rust's value proposition is simple: no GC and no undefined behavior. Period. Nothing else has that.

jibalt 5y ago
Rust has plenty of undefined behavior: https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/behavior-considered-undefined.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/behavior-considered-unde...
_vvhw 5y ago
I don't know, people like Mitchell Hashimoto and Tobi Lütke are taking Zig seriously for systems programming. Coil are also investing in writing a new distributed financial database for Zig—considering the trajectory of the language and the lifetime of our project, it made sense. Of course the swell is early, but waves are what technology is about, and the surfers are there and paddling out. It's a great time to be getting involved, especially for greenfield projects that have some time in themselves to reach stability and don't want to pay a language compiler/complexity tax for the rest of the project's lifetime. You could also throw a dart blindfolded into the Zig community and be pretty sure to hit some seriously talented programmers to learn from. If you're investing in a deep understanding of the language now, I'm pretty sure it will pay off down the line.