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> And so what if people refuse to do shitty jobs? The "so what" is that basic income doesn't change the ordinal ranking of how much people prefer to do differe

> And so what if people refuse to do shitty jobs? The "so what" is that basic income doesn't change the ordinal ranking of how much people prefer to do different jobs. Neither does it change people's ability to get those jobs. Better qualified applicants will always have better options. So while basic income might increase the nominal pay of the least preferable jobs, it wouldn't mean you suddenly get to skip over the "shitty jobs" and suddenly get access to the better ones.

CraigJPerry 5y ago
That doesn’t ring true. If you had the capital to make the decision not to work a crap-corp and instead pursue your dream “job” of being painter, musician, rock climbing explorer, artisanal fisherman, etc etc
- bitshiftfaced 5y ago
  What about everyone else who now also has the capital to pursue their dream job? Just as before basic income, there's many people competing for a finite number of dream jobs.
  - CraigJPerry 5y ago
    What about them? Comparatively enjoyable jobs will pay less, horrible jobs will pay more. Want to “work” as a golfer? Cool, enjoy living on UBI because no one will be topping up your salary for that. The person who cuts the greens earns wayyyy more than you though. Want to play lots of golf? You’re going to run out of UBI to pay for all those greens fees. Maybe you need to think about taking on a side gig in a comfortable back office worker role (salary $1k/year), or a refuse collector (salary $130k/year).
    - bitshiftfaced 5y ago
      > Comparatively enjoyable jobs will pay less, horrible jobs will pay more. Why? Golfing is a poor example because you can already lose money trying to be a pro. Or, you could become world famous and make millions. What's more is that you don't need to be "hired" to become a golfer. When we talk about jobs that firms pay salaries to fill, then I don't see why the supply of those jobs would change, whether they're enjoyable or horrible. Since the supply would still be in the same ratio as before basic income, I'd think that doctors would still make more than the hospital janitors, even though the janitors would make more than before on a nominal basis.
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        Golfing is an expensive passtime for 99.9% of the people who play it. It's not something that should ever be viewed as a "dream job" and if you do have aspirations to be a pro and didn't start working on it before age 10, you never will be one.
      - CraigJPerry 5y ago
        >> then I don't see why the supply of those jobs would change Are you not underestimating just how radical a change UBI would be? You’re going to radically change which jobs are viable. For example, if you pay every teacher UBI, is it a stretch to imagine more than half decide not to go into work tomorrow? It’s not just a case of paying teachers more when they can afford to say no to your job. You’re talking about completely changing the role. There’s going to be zero room for unruly kids in that classroom. Suddenly the teacher flips from being one of the least powerful professions to being up there with doctors and lawyers (im aware in some societies this is already the case but not in the US).
        tekknik 5y ago
        > There’s going to be zero room for unruly kids in that classroom. How come multiple times now people point out UBI as being a way to deal with the entitled people running around right now? And with more entitlements we’ll have more of an issue with entitled people.
        CraigJPerry 5y ago
        >> And with more entitlements With more money in some cases and less in others. Entitlements, that’s far too broad an umbrella. What exactly would you be entitled to beyond sufficient money to make a basic living and pursue the free pleasures in life (which are generally among the best available in life). What’s more fulfilling, spending $130k to ride the vomit comet for a couple of hours - i say this as someone who would LOVE to do that - or hiking to the top of a local mountain with a loved one to watch a sunrise? Vomit comet is COOL but it’s not fulfilling. Not in the meaningful way that time spent with a loved one enjoying the beauty of life is. But back to the entitlements - why is a teacher going to agree to teach an unruly kid? They don’t need this job. They’re here because it’s a passion in life, they’ve chosen a career not of necessity but of interest.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tekknik 5y ago
      So if there are no golfers, then why are the groundskeepers making so much? Golfing gets more expensive because you have to pay the lawn mowers literally sitting on a vehicle all day, so less people do it, then the groundskeeper is out of a job? Now what?
      - CraigJPerry 5y ago
        >> So if there are no golfers Why are there no golfers? If everyone has basic needs met, shelter, basic food, healthcare, you’re telling me no one is going to make use of some time to go play some golf? Why? >> why are the groundskeepers making so much? Golf courses dont magic out of thin air, ubi can do a lot but it’s not magic. You’re going to have to pay someone enough that they choose to specialise then take on that career. They’re going to need capital for equipment etc etc but there’s a lot of people would like to play golf. A golf club won’t look anything like those of today though. Ubi would have such a drastic change in society given sufficient time that perhaps even the game of golf itself would change.
        tekknik 5y ago
        > Why are there no golfers? I explained why, read it again. And golf is not a basic need, it’s entertainment. Which in hard times nobody pays for. You’re gonna choose golf over eating?
        CraigJPerry 5y ago
        >> If everyone has basic needs met, shelter, basic food >> You’re gonna choose golf over eating? Why?
        tekknik 5y ago
        Read it again, i explained already.
- tekknik 5y ago
  > rock climbing explorer, artisanal fisherman I can’t wait to see the GDP “growth” charts…
  - CraigJPerry 5y ago
    Why do we need GDP growth? Is there no other point on the spectrum which is sustainable? E.g. instead of “grow” - which is inherently unsustainable, you run out of materials and labour to feed the economy - i mean we can continue to kick the can down the road for a few generations yet and pretend we don’t understand what “grow” means in the context of finite resources. Instead of “shrink” which is also unsustainable. Is there some other viable point?
    - tekknik 5y ago
      Because that’s why our money is worth anything in the first place. Unless you’re trying to make arcade tokens worthless outside of the arcade.
      - CraigJPerry 5y ago
        >> Because that’s why our money is worth anything in the first place The reason most currencies are worth anything are because you get thrown in jail if you fail to pay tax levied upon you denominated in that currency.
        tekknik 5y ago
        No, money is worth something because another country wants to buy stuff you make and this must be done in your currency. Stop making what people want, or keep devaluing your money to the point where holding it means you lose value, and people stop using your currency. They become arcade tokens that only have value inside the borders. You cannot force value, economics 101.

CraigJPerry 5y ago

That doesn’t ring true. If you had the capital to make the decision not to work a crap-corp and instead pursue your dream “job” of being painter, musician, rock climbing explorer, artisanal fisherman, etc etc

bitshiftfaced 5y ago
What about everyone else who now also has the capital to pursue their dream job? Just as before basic income, there's many people competing for a finite number of dream jobs.
- CraigJPerry 5y ago
  What about them? Comparatively enjoyable jobs will pay less, horrible jobs will pay more. Want to “work” as a golfer? Cool, enjoy living on UBI because no one will be topping up your salary for that. The person who cuts the greens earns wayyyy more than you though. Want to play lots of golf? You’re going to run out of UBI to pay for all those greens fees. Maybe you need to think about taking on a side gig in a comfortable back office worker role (salary $1k/year), or a refuse collector (salary $130k/year).
  - bitshiftfaced 5y ago
    > Comparatively enjoyable jobs will pay less, horrible jobs will pay more. Why? Golfing is a poor example because you can already lose money trying to be a pro. Or, you could become world famous and make millions. What's more is that you don't need to be "hired" to become a golfer. When we talk about jobs that firms pay salaries to fill, then I don't see why the supply of those jobs would change, whether they're enjoyable or horrible. Since the supply would still be in the same ratio as before basic income, I'd think that doctors would still make more than the hospital janitors, even though the janitors would make more than before on a nominal basis.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      Golfing is an expensive passtime for 99.9% of the people who play it. It's not something that should ever be viewed as a "dream job" and if you do have aspirations to be a pro and didn't start working on it before age 10, you never will be one.
    - CraigJPerry 5y ago
      >> then I don't see why the supply of those jobs would change Are you not underestimating just how radical a change UBI would be? You’re going to radically change which jobs are viable. For example, if you pay every teacher UBI, is it a stretch to imagine more than half decide not to go into work tomorrow? It’s not just a case of paying teachers more when they can afford to say no to your job. You’re talking about completely changing the role. There’s going to be zero room for unruly kids in that classroom. Suddenly the teacher flips from being one of the least powerful professions to being up there with doctors and lawyers (im aware in some societies this is already the case but not in the US).
      - tekknik 5y ago
        > There’s going to be zero room for unruly kids in that classroom. How come multiple times now people point out UBI as being a way to deal with the entitled people running around right now? And with more entitlements we’ll have more of an issue with entitled people.
        CraigJPerry 5y ago
        >> And with more entitlements With more money in some cases and less in others. Entitlements, that’s far too broad an umbrella. What exactly would you be entitled to beyond sufficient money to make a basic living and pursue the free pleasures in life (which are generally among the best available in life). What’s more fulfilling, spending $130k to ride the vomit comet for a couple of hours - i say this as someone who would LOVE to do that - or hiking to the top of a local mountain with a loved one to watch a sunrise? Vomit comet is COOL but it’s not fulfilling. Not in the meaningful way that time spent with a loved one enjoying the beauty of life is. But back to the entitlements - why is a teacher going to agree to teach an unruly kid? They don’t need this job. They’re here because it’s a passion in life, they’ve chosen a career not of necessity but of interest.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tekknik 5y ago
    So if there are no golfers, then why are the groundskeepers making so much? Golfing gets more expensive because you have to pay the lawn mowers literally sitting on a vehicle all day, so less people do it, then the groundskeeper is out of a job? Now what?
    - CraigJPerry 5y ago
      >> So if there are no golfers Why are there no golfers? If everyone has basic needs met, shelter, basic food, healthcare, you’re telling me no one is going to make use of some time to go play some golf? Why? >> why are the groundskeepers making so much? Golf courses dont magic out of thin air, ubi can do a lot but it’s not magic. You’re going to have to pay someone enough that they choose to specialise then take on that career. They’re going to need capital for equipment etc etc but there’s a lot of people would like to play golf. A golf club won’t look anything like those of today though. Ubi would have such a drastic change in society given sufficient time that perhaps even the game of golf itself would change.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        > Why are there no golfers? I explained why, read it again. And golf is not a basic need, it’s entertainment. Which in hard times nobody pays for. You’re gonna choose golf over eating?
        CraigJPerry 5y ago
        >> If everyone has basic needs met, shelter, basic food >> You’re gonna choose golf over eating? Why?
        tekknik 5y ago
        Read it again, i explained already.
tekknik 5y ago
> rock climbing explorer, artisanal fisherman I can’t wait to see the GDP “growth” charts…
- CraigJPerry 5y ago
  Why do we need GDP growth? Is there no other point on the spectrum which is sustainable? E.g. instead of “grow” - which is inherently unsustainable, you run out of materials and labour to feed the economy - i mean we can continue to kick the can down the road for a few generations yet and pretend we don’t understand what “grow” means in the context of finite resources. Instead of “shrink” which is also unsustainable. Is there some other viable point?
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Because that’s why our money is worth anything in the first place. Unless you’re trying to make arcade tokens worthless outside of the arcade.
    - CraigJPerry 5y ago
      >> Because that’s why our money is worth anything in the first place The reason most currencies are worth anything are because you get thrown in jail if you fail to pay tax levied upon you denominated in that currency.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        No, money is worth something because another country wants to buy stuff you make and this must be done in your currency. Stop making what people want, or keep devaluing your money to the point where holding it means you lose value, and people stop using your currency. They become arcade tokens that only have value inside the borders. You cannot force value, economics 101.