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No, I'm not claiming anything about a currency being manipulated. I'm saying the idea that a currency in and of itself is being manipulated is completely irrele

by mbesto 5y ago

No, I'm not claiming anything about a currency being manipulated. I'm saying the idea that a currency in and of itself is being manipulated is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Currency manipulation, in the context of the OP's discussion, implies one currencies relation to another one, in this case USD and BTC. Federal interest rates affecting the value of your dollar making purchases for goods and services is completely irrelevant.

notch656a 5y ago
I knew when I bought crypto it was being manipulated. I don't give a fuck, I use it as a medium of exchange usually dumping it within a few minutes of buying it in order to buy some goods online to avoid credit card fees (precious metals). It's true dollar is manipulated. It is true crypto is manipulated. It is true many people such as myself purely is it as a medium of exchange. Just like with dollars, I dump it as quickly as possible to buy physical assets or other investments, lest the government inflate my fiat or manipulators manipulate my crypto. In short, currencies are usually bad choice for store of value. Fed intentionally destroys USD by target of 2% a year to intentionally sabotage store of value. Back to the point. Pretty much all coins are manipulated. Even commodity money. Best to avoid regulation so government's hand is out of the pot. Also I recommend people not use crypto as investment, that is probably not smart idea to consider long chain of cryptographic signatures and hashes as a large portion of investment on your future. Or piece of paper with a president and a number on it on it either.
- mbesto 5y ago
  > In short, currencies are usually bad choice for store of value. > Also I recommend people not use crypto as investment, that is probably not smart idea to consider long chain of cryptographic signatures and hashes as a large portion of investment on your future. Re-read what you wrote there again for me. How do you pay for any goods or services if you: > dump it as quickly as possible to buy physical assets So, like cars that depreciate in value the second you buy them? (note - I recognize the last 2 years this has not been the case...but thats a historic anomaly) What other physical assets are you aware of that consistently outpace inflation? Housing? What else? > or other investments Like ones denominated in....US currency?
  - notch656a 5y ago
    I pay for goods and services with USD. I get USD either by liquidating non-USD denominated asset for USD or from income-stream (wages). I didn't say I don't use USD, I said I hold it as short as possible just like with crypto. >So, like cars that depreciate in value the second you buy them? Generally worst example, although a few cars have held their value (some Porsche, but I'm not good enough car guy to execute this.) >Like ones denominated in....US currency? Like the ones not denominated in US currency, like stocks denominated in shares.
- preseinger 5y ago
  The definition of "manipulated" which allows "the dollar and BTC are both being manipulated" to resolve as true is so broad that it is effectively meaningless. The dollar is not being manipulated in the way that reasonable people understand the word to mean. BTC obviously is.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    No true [reasonable] Scotsman would believe monetary policy by fed is manipulation. Got it; your definition of unreasonable is so broad that it is effectively meaningless.
    - preseinger 5y ago
      The Fed has a mandate to act in the broad interest of society. It doesn't manipulate currency by any non-conspiratorial definition of manipulate, no.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        Ah I see, it's not manipulation because you perceive the fed as acting virtuously. That's actually not the mandate of the fed. The mandate is: The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal Open Market Committee shall maintain long run growth of the monetary and credit aggregates commensurate with the economy's long run potential to increase production, so as to promote effectively the goals of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates. Whether prices are currently stable or interest rates are moderate are a lively source of discussion. Regardless of opinion here, I think you have a generous definition of manipulation to exclude acts operating under a nominal mandate of some vague interest of society (and I may add many other acts made under pretext of interest in society are source of outrage on HN).
        preseinger 5y ago
        I, an anonymous actor beholden to no authority nor regulation, can manipulate Bitcoin _directly_ with sufficient capital and a sufficiently intelligent bit of code. It's fun and intellectually pointed to say this is just a _version_ of the kind of "manipulation" performed by the Fed against the dollar but it's transparently and categorically a different thing. It's an obviously specious argument and it diminishes whomever makes it.

by mbesto 5y ago

notch656a 5y ago

I knew when I bought crypto it was being manipulated. I don't give a fuck, I use it as a medium of exchange usually dumping it within a few minutes of buying it in order to buy some goods online to avoid credit card fees (precious metals). It's true dollar is manipulated. It is true crypto is manipulated. It is true many people such as myself purely is it as a medium of exchange. Just like with dollars, I dump it as quickly as possible to buy physical assets or other investments, lest the government inflate my fiat or manipulators manipulate my crypto. In short, currencies are usually bad choice for store of value. Fed intentionally destroys USD by target of 2% a year to intentionally sabotage store of value. Back to the point. Pretty much all coins are manipulated. Even commodity money. Best to avoid regulation so government's hand is out of the pot. Also I recommend people not use crypto as investment, that is probably not smart idea to consider long chain of cryptographic signatures and hashes as a large portion of investment on your future. Or piece of paper with a president and a number on it on it either.

mbesto 5y ago
> In short, currencies are usually bad choice for store of value. > Also I recommend people not use crypto as investment, that is probably not smart idea to consider long chain of cryptographic signatures and hashes as a large portion of investment on your future. Re-read what you wrote there again for me. How do you pay for any goods or services if you: > dump it as quickly as possible to buy physical assets So, like cars that depreciate in value the second you buy them? (note - I recognize the last 2 years this has not been the case...but thats a historic anomaly) What other physical assets are you aware of that consistently outpace inflation? Housing? What else? > or other investments Like ones denominated in....US currency?
- notch656a 5y ago
  I pay for goods and services with USD. I get USD either by liquidating non-USD denominated asset for USD or from income-stream (wages). I didn't say I don't use USD, I said I hold it as short as possible just like with crypto. >So, like cars that depreciate in value the second you buy them? Generally worst example, although a few cars have held their value (some Porsche, but I'm not good enough car guy to execute this.) >Like ones denominated in....US currency? Like the ones not denominated in US currency, like stocks denominated in shares.
preseinger 5y ago
The definition of "manipulated" which allows "the dollar and BTC are both being manipulated" to resolve as true is so broad that it is effectively meaningless. The dollar is not being manipulated in the way that reasonable people understand the word to mean. BTC obviously is.
- notch656a 5y ago
  No true [reasonable] Scotsman would believe monetary policy by fed is manipulation. Got it; your definition of unreasonable is so broad that it is effectively meaningless.
  - preseinger 5y ago
    The Fed has a mandate to act in the broad interest of society. It doesn't manipulate currency by any non-conspiratorial definition of manipulate, no.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      Ah I see, it's not manipulation because you perceive the fed as acting virtuously. That's actually not the mandate of the fed. The mandate is: The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal Open Market Committee shall maintain long run growth of the monetary and credit aggregates commensurate with the economy's long run potential to increase production, so as to promote effectively the goals of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates. Whether prices are currently stable or interest rates are moderate are a lively source of discussion. Regardless of opinion here, I think you have a generous definition of manipulation to exclude acts operating under a nominal mandate of some vague interest of society (and I may add many other acts made under pretext of interest in society are source of outrage on HN).
      - preseinger 5y ago
        I, an anonymous actor beholden to no authority nor regulation, can manipulate Bitcoin _directly_ with sufficient capital and a sufficiently intelligent bit of code. It's fun and intellectually pointed to say this is just a _version_ of the kind of "manipulation" performed by the Fed against the dollar but it's transparently and categorically a different thing. It's an obviously specious argument and it diminishes whomever makes it.