15 ms·

I Have a Dream (1963)

311 points by RickJWagner 5y ago

kgarten 5y ago
I find the speech MLK gave a day before he was killed much more relevant today. He calls for unity and challenges our ideals. He spoke on April 3, 1968 and was assassinated the next day (Chilling sometimes as he discusses his own death). "I've Been to the Mountaintop" https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkivebeentothemountaintop.htm https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkivebeentothemou... A nice special from Democracy Now: https://www.democracynow.org/2022/1/17/mlk_day_special_2022 https://www.democracynow.org/2022/1/17/mlk_day_special_2022
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  It is a good speech ( I have misgivings about the ornate start, but different times and different audience ). My favorite fragment is the following: "If I lived in China or even Russia, or any totalitarian country, maybe I could understand some of these illegal injunctions. Maybe I could understand the denial of certain basic First Amendment privileges, because they hadn't committed themselves to that over there. But somewhere I read of the freedom of assembly." We tend to only hear the 'dream' speech, which is a shame ( doubly so since MLK estate is still milking it[1]). [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/01/15/54-years-later-you-still-have-to-pay-to-use-martin-luther-king-jr-s-famous-i-have-a-dream-speech/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/01/...
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    I wouldn’t say it’s a shame. Most people, even enormously consequential people, don’t have any of their own words passed down to history. Which of George Washington’s speeches is wildly read today? “I have a dream” is an amazing speech delivered by an amazing orator. That this once in a generation talent also delivered other great speeches is unsurprising but there’s no need to denigrate the special place that IHaD has in our society out of some hipster-esque desire to demonstrate true fandom. It deserves its spot.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      I will admit that I never thought about it like that. The image of fedora wearing individual stating he only listens to unedited audio and insisting that anyone listening to 'dream' speech is part of pop-culture popped into my head . It is funny. I apologize if my comment sounded that way. That was definitely not my intention. I think I am just still a little cranky since kid woke me up early and coffee didn't kick in.
      - deleted 5y ago
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    - maroonblazer 5y ago
      Your comment was perfectly ok until this part: >there’s no need to denigrate the special place that IHaD has in our society out of some hipster-esque desire to demonstrate true fandom. You're imputing a lot of motives based on nothing in the parent comment.
      - bradleyjg 5y ago
        A4E seem to take it okay. That it was a funny image was half the reason I included that part. Chillax.
      - jancsika 5y ago
        > You're imputing a lot of motives based on nothing in the parent comment. To be fair, OP is responding to an ambiguity. Was GP's point that "I Have a Dream" is great and it's a shame that the wider public doesn't know more of MLK's great speeches? Or was the point that "I Have a Dream" is subpar when compared to the other speeches and thus misrepresents his output? tldr; Was GP saying "I Have a Dream" is the "Beethoven's 5th" of speeches, or "Ravel's Bolero" of speeches? Upshot-- OP is not being generous by jumping on the more divisive interpretation. However, since it is a valid interpretation OP's lack of generosity is based on something and not nothing. Fin.
        watwut 5y ago
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    > We tend to only hear the 'dream' speech Cynically I think there has been a political project to expunge most of King’s ideas from the public memory, leaving only those that everyone is comfortable with. The public image of the man has been watered down to merely opposing segregation and legal discrimination, and all of his more radical economic proposals and opinions tend to be politely ignored. The March on Washington also included a demand for a $2 minimum wage ($17 in 2020 dollars) and self governance for Washington DC, funny how that isn’t mentioned often. Hell, he was helping support a strike when he was assassinated. How many people were taught that before?
    - Taywee 5y ago
      > Cynically I think there has been a political project to expunge most of King’s ideas from the public memory, leaving only those that everyone is comfortable with. I don't think so. I think it's more that things get distilled and simplified in public memory naturally. How much of all of all the activities of other greatly-remembered figures are actually all fully remembered and talked about? Do you think the public has anywhere near a complete perception of all the ideals of Gandhi, Mother Theresa, George Washington, or Abraham Lincoln? Unless you are a scholar in the area, you have done specific research out of curiosity, or you have been personally affected by it, most of what you see is the stuff that echos in the public memory, which is the largest events and purest distillation of the ideals and character of the person in question. Human memory is built on patterns, symbols, and stripping of what seems to be unnecessary extraneous information, and this seems to be much more extreme in cultural memory. I don't think there has been any conscious effort to remove the other ideals that King had, it's just not what he did that people care about most right now.
      - watwut 5y ago
        Imo, memory of other great figures and greatly influenced by politics. And often very intentionally, people using their names have agendas. That includes the three people you mentioned.
    - ralusek 5y ago
      That's because ideas shouldn't be bundled together just because a person said them. The I Have A Dream speech is famous precisely because it is the most important/widely agreed upon of his ideas: evaluate individuals according to their own character independently of whatever collective you might otherwise assume characteristics of. That's a good idea. People like that idea. We don't talk about King's socialism as much, because what he said in that arena wasn't particularly revolutionary, and many people don't find socialism to be compelling (myself included). Hence, remembering ideas.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  To quote the concluding sentences for those who haven't read the whole speech, and which stand on their own as much as any words do... > "Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it really doesn't matter with me now, because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land! And so I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man! Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord!"
  - syngrog66 5y ago
    powerful and chilling. it is as if he knew. he knew his fate. and he sensed it coming soon. and yet he continued his work anyway. exemplar of American heroism
- namelezz 5y ago
  With all flashy racial movements and Amendments, US still somehow makes it to the bottom 10 countries for racial equality, even worse than a totalitarian country. There is nothing wrong with US racial system. The survey is wrong. You are doing great. Keep heading to that direction. [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-04-13/us-is-one-of-the-10-worst-countries-for-racial-equality https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-04-...
  - divbzero 5y ago
    I’m not surprised that people perceive the US to struggle with racial equality when it (a) has indeed struggled with racial equality since founding and through civil war and (b) airs its dirty laundry pretty openly.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      Yeah, I mean police killing innocent black people on the streets is quite public indeed.
  - deleted 5y ago
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- krylon 5y ago
  I don't disagree with you. But the "I have a dream" speech will live forever as one of the greatest political speeches, if not THE greatest political speech, both in rhetorics, impact, and content. I remember reading that speech in English class (I'm German), and it left me deeply impressed. The only other speech I read that came close to this was Richard von Weizsäcker's speech commemorating the 40th anniversary of Germany's surrender, ending World War II. MLK was one of those very, very rare figures where the power of their ideas (and ethics!) was matched by the power of their voices. I'd really love to know what the world would look like today if he had not been murdered.
  - kirse 5y ago
    Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address has to be in that conversation...
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    The popularity of his whitewashing is indeed an impressive meta-political historical feat.
    - pintxo 5y ago
      Care to elaborate?
      - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
        Not OP, but MLK was a pretty radical antiwar socialist who spoke of riots as "the language of the unheard," and stated that most Americans are unconscious racists. The final bit of his "I Have a Dream," speech is all most people know of his words today, but before he was assassinated, he was attempting to call people to much greater action.
        wesleywt 5y ago
        citation needed.
      - 5y ago
rjsw 5y ago
An interesting comment on MLK published today [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is-revered-today-but-the-real-king-would-make-white-people-uncomfortable https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is...
- epivosism 5y ago
  pretty vile race baiting. no single argument in the first 4 paragraphs, just hissing implications of racism levelled generically towards people based on their race.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    Agreed. This particular fragment really stood out for me: 'Oh, wait … King made that speech at Grosse Pointe High School, where Michigan’s Republican-controlled House of Representatives recently passed an anti-CRT bill making it illegal to teach that the “United States is a fundamentally racist country”. Never mind.' It is a weird opinion piece, because its arguments are just loosely connected pieces of information ( in the fragment above, geography ). Then again, Guardian political stance is at least very consistent.
    - deanCommie 5y ago
      I think it's a relevant anecdote, don't you? That the very place where King advocated for civil rights 60 years ago is now attempting to white-wash it's racist history. Not every part of the US is. But that one certainly is. Whatever overarching point you want to make about the state of race relations and debate in the United State in the 2020s, it is a fact that in the "Land of the Free", open discussion of historical injustices is being suppressed. I'm sure someone might raise the point that some anti-gay/trans bigotry books are ALSO being suppressed, so I'll preemptively state that these are not the same thing.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
        Eh, poetic license has its place and I am more forgiving when it comes to opinion pieces. That said, the anecdote is almost completely irrelevant. At the best, it is trying to use image of MLK and argue the following: "MLK gave a speech here once, therefore making it a sacred ground, where 'nothing we declare bad' can happen". That is not a very convincing argument. I do not see it as relevant even if we lower its status to an anecdote. At best, it is just something that happened. << Whatever overarching point you want to make about the state of race relations and debate in the United State in the 2020s, it is a fact that in the "Land of the Free", open discussion of historical injustices is being suppressed. I am not big on overarching statements, but I will address the one quoted above. If open discussion is being suppressed, we have no one to blame, but ourselves, because we let this happen. Inch by inch, some subjects became impossible to discuss without repercussions. It is absolutely wild given how free this country used to be in terms of speech. We now have kids in universities who self-censor so as not to offend. So yeah, open debate is being suppressed, but probably not the way you want to believe it is.
steve76 5y ago
froggertoaster 5y ago
A great man whose life ended far too early. I only wish the dignity MLK showed would be alive in political movements today. EDIT: to those in the comments suddenly bringing up BLM - I didn't mention a single particular political movement. I think both sides could benefit from a huge dose of dignity tbh.
- bigbillheck 5y ago
  It's worth reading up on how the protests of the 60s were perceived by whites at the time, and thinking about how that compares to the 2020 protests.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Read 'Letter From a Birmingham Jail'. It could have been written today.
  - deleted 5y ago
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- ttfkam 5y ago
  What do you think BLM is? Would it surprise you to learn that the vast majority of the BLM protests in 2020 were completely nonviolent? Or that more than a couple of marches led by MLK were marred by violence? MLK was hated by many at the time. To see why, just look at the comments opposing BLM today. They are conspicuously similar in tone and content.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Precisely. Look at the anti-MLK editorial comic pictured in https://www.cbr.com/martin-luther-king-jr-cartoons-depictions-1960s-media/ https://www.cbr.com/martin-luther-king-jr-cartoons-depiction.... Identical messaging you see used against BLM today; titled "I plan to lead another non-violent march tomorrow" with MLK pictured front of a burning hellscape.
    - 5y ago
Anechoic 5y ago
I appreciate the sentiment for which this was submitted, but in reflecting upon MLKJr's legacy, please realize that he was far more than this one speech. He spoke about workers rights [0], civil rights backlash reparations [1], the dangers of incrementalism in civil rights progress [2], condemnation of the Vietnam war [3], and more [4]. Please resist the temptation to reduce his legacy to an out-of-context " content of their character" and call it a day. And please remember that MLKJr was widely disliked in his time. [5] [0] https://billmoyers.com/story/martin-luther-kings-fight-workers-rights/ https://billmoyers.com/story/martin-luther-kings-fight-worke... [1] https://www.theroot.com/exclusive-martin-luther-king-jr-talks-reparations-wh-1837907942 https://www.theroot.com/exclusive-martin-luther-king-jr-talk... [2] https://letterfromjail.com https://letterfromjail.com [3] https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietnam https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietn... [4] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/how-mlks-multifaceted-view-on-human-rights-still-inspires https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/how-mlks-... [5] https://news.gallup.com/poll/20920/martin-luther-king-jr-revered-more-after-death-than-before.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/20920/martin-luther-king-jr-rev...
- deleted 5y ago
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- AddisonRyan 5y ago
  Indeed, his life was dedicated to defeating three evils: Racism, Militarism, and Poverty. Reducing it to only racism ignores most of what made his work so important.
  - zackmorris 5y ago
    With that ignorance fueling the autocolonization we're under today, having extracted the human and material wealth from all the developing nations of the world. Colonizing ourselves through the systems of control that we mastered, regardless of gender, race or creed, driven by the fear of some other doing better than we are.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    But this is the point. To show the world that he died for racism. America wants him to be a hero, but an American hero, not a socialist hero. I wonder what opiniob had Dulles about him.
jfengel 5y ago
Unfortunately it is still a dream. I've seen too many people quote only the most famous line as if the dream were already true, as a way to ignore the injustices that King cited. It became better because of King and continued to improve, but it remains a struggle, and many want to reverse what has been achieved.
js2 5y ago
Delivered Aug, 1963. Earlier that year, in April, MLK Jr. wrote "Letter from Birmingham Jail." All I can say is, read it if you haven't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-...
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Yes, what Dr. King says is born out again and again. It is the code, they key, to much of what is happening today. It is one of the most revelatory, insightful documents I've read in my life.
- deleted 5y ago
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- heresie-dabord 5y ago
  "So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love?" -- MLK Jr Half a century later, I want to add: Will we be extremists for ignorance or for civilisation?
parkingrift 5y ago
>I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Boy have we gone off the rails on this one. Skin color has become a primary way people self identify. Sad.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  This is sadly true. Sorry to see this downvoted.
- orf 5y ago
  He says nothing about self-identification, but about external judgement. Which I guess you're doing here.
  - daenz 5y ago
    How you self identify has a massive influence on how people externally judge you.
    - orf 5y ago
      Sure, but that’s on them isn’t it. Should they not identify as their race, religion, creed or culture because you judge them for doing so?
      - daenz 5y ago
        Yes, if that's not what you want to be judged on. When you publicly self identify as something, you are signaling to the world that that is the most relevant lens to view you through.
        orf 5y ago
        So your judgement on the content of their character is a negative one because they choose to outwardly identify themselves as the race they belong to, and incorporate it into their character? Ok. I guess instead they should suppress that and just act “white” (or whatever the majority race is)?
machinerychorus 5y ago
"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." "Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable... Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals." "Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted." "An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity." "The function of education is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically. Intelligence plus character - that is the goal of true education." "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom." "Any religion that professes to be concerned about the souls of men and is not concerned about the slums that damn them, the economic conditions that strangle them and the social conditions that cripple them is a spiritually moribund religion awaiting burial." "Capitalism does not permit an even flow of economic resources. With this system, a small privileged few are rich beyond conscience, and almost all others are doomed to be poor at some level. That's the way the system works. And since we know that the system will not change the rules, we are going to have to change the system." "The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi." "It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it." "Property is intended to serve life, and no matter how much we surround it with rights and respect, it has no personal being. It is part of the earth man walks on. It is not man." "Don't let anybody make you think God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world." "Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. I am not unmindful of the fact that violence often brings about momentary results. Nations have frequently won their independence in battle. But in spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace." "I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek." "The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood." "Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control." "The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be... The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists."
wolverine876 5y ago
Courage is said to be grace under pressure. As we look around our society today, who has the grace, with the enormous hatred, division, despair, and deceit, to lead and speak to such high ideals - and with concrete strategy, effort, and success? Remember that Dr. King did not know the end of the story; it all could have been a waste of time, a horribly demoralizing defeat. If I recall correctly, King's popularity was underwater when that speech was given - not a national hero like today. What hope did Dr. King have? We can look back on the civil rights successes and MLK, King looked back on no such thing - no such thing had ever happened. They were pushing against centuries of slavery, segregation and lynchings - still ongoing - and yet they stood up against that tide and fought - not with despair, hatred, and violence, but under that incredible, unrelenting pressure they envisioned such incredible grace and held firm to it - and they won. When I feel overwhelmed by today's struggles, when I feel the pressure to compromise my values to despair and demoralization, I remember that courage.
- thewarrior 5y ago
  MLK was never popular he was considered too left wing, too radical and socialist before he was appropriated and then turned into a mild mannered reformer.
  - jknoepfler 5y ago
    By the WASP establishment. He was contemporaneous with Malcolm X. It's important to acknowledge that then as now, he was (and is) considered far too collaborationist and conservative by many of the people he purported to represent.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      A considerably difficult situation for leadership. Think of all the pressures from every direction, from all the voices, all centered on one person. Dr. King had no power beyond a voice - no elected office, no billions of dollars, no control of mass media, etc. And then holding it all together, guiding it, actually implementing strategies through it - and succeeding.
spoonjim 5y ago
Listening to this speech and copying it out by hand with pen and paper will teach you more about storytelling and narrative than 100 startup marketing guides.
- criddell 5y ago
  "I have a dream, that extended car warranties can be afforded by all and recorded on the blockchain."
thepasswordis 5y ago
Good lord these comments. The man gives perhaps one of the most important speeches in American History, and of course here comes the silicon valley brigade to tell everybody what he really meant. He was speaking to 250,000 people after a massive civil rights march. This is what he chose to say. I don't think we need anybody to interpret it for him.
- deleted 5y ago
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nudpiedo 5y ago
A comment as an European outsider to our fellow americans here in HN: I would say this speech is not just american but it belongs to the whole recent western culture as much as May 68, the Carnation Revolution, or the fall from Berlin's wall.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  What is its presence like in your part of the world? Do people know about it? Do they read it? How is it perceived?
  - runarberg 5y ago
    I’m a European that migrated to America a few years ago. MLK is certainly well known where I come from (Scandinavia). His legacy is known by most and his political alignments and are known by most people on the left political spectrum. When people bring up racial injustice in America his name often pops up. However it is not often where his name is connected to the broader context. People on the left might mention him when talking about economic injustice in relation to race in Europe, but I would say it is rare. Sometimes really competent journalists might quite him or bring his historical context, but that is even rarer. He is most often thought off as an American addressing American problems, which I personally think is a pity. I would think his legacy in Scandinavia is about the same as the legacy of Nelson Mandela is to Americans.
  - nudpiedo 5y ago
    I would say it is well known by everyone who has a regular amount of general culture. The view of MLK it is without doubts positive, and the social fight he represents it is seen as it was necessary or inevitable, like universal suffrage, feminism and the like (but particular for the cause). In Spain it is indirectly studied together with cultural movements of the XX century and the evolution of society. But not too much or specifically, but as it became a Pop Icon (due its martyrdom, appearance in news, documentaries, or even advertisement spots) everyone would know about it as much as people in America might now about Gandhi just to say an example. Very few people might know specifics of his life, or a very accurate context on how exactly was American society at the time he lived, but undoubtably everyone knows or has heard of MLK, could recognize his face and the first sentence of his speech and the social fight against racial discrimination. What it is not completely understood from American society, for example, is all the nuances and cultural differences regarding racism and daily interactions. For example, people picture racism as black or white dichotomy (forgetting many other issues or different minorities), and they cannot understand why the word “nigger” is taboo and at the same time used constantly in shows by black people themselves, I remember even a youngster who thought that it was kind of joke/slang thing and repeated it aloud without fully comprehend the social taboo around it or degree of ofende that it would have that implied for an american person. In this regard movies and Netflix shows sort of educate people about these topics in American culture. I would say, in spite of everyone fully agreeing with the ideals of MLK, racism or how social integration across different racial groups works, is still understood in different ways and totally depends on the local culture of each country; one example which I found myself crazy: in Spain no one could understand blackfacing as a derogatory action as it is part of some cultural celebrations without any intention of mocking or whatsoever, but in Britain I believe the same action would be understood as a large offense against black or people of color. And still in both countries the majority of its population would agree without hesitation on the ideals that MLK represents. But again, these are cultural differences, the message of MLK is largely accepted and even understood necessary as part of a social society where everyone an be part of and being judged by its personality not by its race. P.D. I hope not to be misunderstood, as I know in America many people is largely sensible to this topic.
mostertoaster 5y ago
It’s sad that this dream has not been realized. Yet if you remember what the day of Nov 5, 2008 felt like. This speech was playing in the background, and the feeling was we were living in the day he dreamed about it. A black man had been elected as the president of the United states. Yet even in that glorious position it was not powerful enough to end the oppression of black people. Is this dream just that? Is it a dream that cannot be achieved. If the president of the United States can’t bring it about well then who can? Or what if it has already been achieved and yet we prefer pretending that it is not. That there is something else in this dream being fulfilled that scares us even more than it not, so we go back to the way it was. I though when Obama was elected we would put the divisive Clinton and Bush years behind us, but instead we’ve grown worse. If anything the cancer has spread more rapidly. Yet I still think MLK’s command is good - “Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.”
- ethbr0 5y ago
  It's a good point. But I prefer to view it as "Dream as in verb." Followed by the work to realize it. Yes, it's exhausting to see progress clawed forward inch by inch, or simply held steady against backwards pressure, but that's what real change looks like. Those who do that work, day in and day out, for years, are heroes. Every movement needs flashy wins for inspiration and celebration. Because that's how media and the human brain work. But it's important to be clear that those wins are the results of work, yet not the work itself. And that before and after the celebration, the work continues. Eight years cannot be expected to unmake five hundred.
  - mostertoaster 5y ago
    See but heres the thing, can 160 unmake 300? You could also argue the work you’re talking about started after the civil war, accelerated during the civil rights era, and culminated in 2008. If you told a recently freed slave that in 150 years a black man would be elected president and that includes nearly half of the white population voting for him. They would’ve looked at that day as a wonderful dream. Yet you are telling them, that day will come but you will not be satisfied. And rightly so they wouldn’t be satisfied. So think even now you’re working towards a dream. Progress was done in 08, but took a step back in 2016. Isn’t it depressing that this dream you’re striving with all your might won’t satisfy even if achieved? Or has the dream been realized. And simply put there is now no excuse. That underneath every time we’re a victim, we are also guilty ourselves.
1cvmask 5y ago
The US government saw and treated him as a domestic terrorist and Russian/communist agent. The NY TImes and mainstream media famously attacked him and he was hated by 75% of Americans. The NSA illegally spied on him and other alleged domestic terrorists: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29968101 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29968101 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/26/nsa-surveillance-anti-vietnam-muhammad-ali-mlk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/26/nsa-surveillan... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-king-had-75-percent-disapproval-rating-year-he-died-180968664/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-kin... He famously called the US government "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/21/king-obama-drones-militarism-sanctions-iran https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/21/king-o... https://theintercept.com/2018/01/15/martin-luther-king-jr-mlk-day-2018/ https://theintercept.com/2018/01/15/martin-luther-king-jr-ml... https://www.history.com/news/martin-luther-king-jr-fbi-j-edgar-hoover-communism https://www.history.com/news/martin-luther-king-jr-fbi-j-edg... https://www.vox.com/2016/1/18/10777146/mlk-day-martin-luther-king https://www.vox.com/2016/1/18/10777146/mlk-day-martin-luther...
- jeffbee 5y ago
  > He famously called the US government "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." I don't see how this statement could be even remotely controversial, then or now.
DantesKite 5y ago
What I find interesting is how the FBI attempted to blackmail him with the constant cheating he did against his wife and managed to not give in (it was a ridiculous level of infidelity). The FBI embarked on an outrageous power trip in order to keep control over "dissidents” and save for some bad press, the institution has never faced consequences in any meaningful way.
iso1631 5y ago
For the rest of the world who might not be aware why this is up, this is a speech an American Civil rights leader gave about 60 years ago at the height of a lot of issues in the US with race relations. Today in America it's "Martin Luther King day", a public holiday celebrating his birthday (15th Jan), many businesses are closed. He was assassinated in 1968.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  "Luther"
  - iso1631 5y ago
    Ta. I've heard of him a few times, but it's not really something non-americans can truly grasp.
    - runarberg 5y ago
      I think you are right, I think it is really hard for non-americans (or rather people that don’t live in the USA) to grasp how huge he is. However I do think—at least for Europeans (me being one my self)—your political alignment makes a different how much you’ve heard of him. Basically, the more left leaning you are the more you know him.
- deleted 5y ago
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- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Very few businesses close on MLK day. It's pretty much just schools and other government offices.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    They mostly close where I live.
    - 5y ago
csense 5y ago
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edmcnulty101 5y ago
My favorite MLK speech is: "Accepting Responsibility for Your Actions." https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/accepting-responsibility-your-actions https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/acc...
civilized 5y ago
There is no need for one-upsmanship on this solemn holiday. Let us celebrate and reaffirm the message of the speech. There is no need to elbow it aside in favor of things you think more important. Let freedom ring.
- deleted 5y ago
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xwdv 5y ago
One thing that is fun to think about in alternate history timelines is what if segregation had never really ended and carried forward into the Information Age? Imagine different websites for whites and blacks. You thought responsive design was complicated? Imagine racist design. Perhaps we would have different protocols if a user was white or black. WTCP/WUDP and BTCP/BUDP? Imagine internet architecture being designed such that packets from white users would always be prioritized over black users. Of course, some black hackers could craft VPNs to spoof your connection to appear as a white user and get faster speeds or access forbidden sites. Imagine white hackers creating viruses or cyber attacks but only against black hosts. Really, really crazy stuff to think about.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > Imagine different websites for whites and blacks. They exist. Try going on a public platform, such as a gaming platform, and identifying yourself as black. Look at all the most popular people on TikTok, Twitch, etc.
wolverine876 5y ago
This OP is two hours old and has more votes and comments than most of the front page stories, yet it's dropped to the second page. If it's a quirk of the algorithm, I hope the mods can address it manually in this case.

311 points by RickJWagner 5y ago

I find the speech MLK gave a day before he was killed much more relevant today. He calls for unity and challenges our ideals. He spoke on April 3, 1968 and was assassinated the next day (Chilling sometimes as he discusses his own death). "I've Been to the Mountaintop" https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkivebeentothemountaintop.htm https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkivebeentothemou... A nice special from Democracy Now: https://www.democracynow.org/2022/1/17/mlk_day_special_2022 https://www.democracynow.org/2022/1/17/mlk_day_special_2022

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
It is a good speech ( I have misgivings about the ornate start, but different times and different audience ). My favorite fragment is the following: "If I lived in China or even Russia, or any totalitarian country, maybe I could understand some of these illegal injunctions. Maybe I could understand the denial of certain basic First Amendment privileges, because they hadn't committed themselves to that over there. But somewhere I read of the freedom of assembly." We tend to only hear the 'dream' speech, which is a shame ( doubly so since MLK estate is still milking it[1]). [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/01/15/54-years-later-you-still-have-to-pay-to-use-martin-luther-king-jr-s-famous-i-have-a-dream-speech/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/01/...
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  I wouldn’t say it’s a shame. Most people, even enormously consequential people, don’t have any of their own words passed down to history. Which of George Washington’s speeches is wildly read today? “I have a dream” is an amazing speech delivered by an amazing orator. That this once in a generation talent also delivered other great speeches is unsurprising but there’s no need to denigrate the special place that IHaD has in our society out of some hipster-esque desire to demonstrate true fandom. It deserves its spot.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    I will admit that I never thought about it like that. The image of fedora wearing individual stating he only listens to unedited audio and insisting that anyone listening to 'dream' speech is part of pop-culture popped into my head . It is funny. I apologize if my comment sounded that way. That was definitely not my intention. I think I am just still a little cranky since kid woke me up early and coffee didn't kick in.
    - deleted 5y ago
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  - maroonblazer 5y ago
    Your comment was perfectly ok until this part: >there’s no need to denigrate the special place that IHaD has in our society out of some hipster-esque desire to demonstrate true fandom. You're imputing a lot of motives based on nothing in the parent comment.
    - bradleyjg 5y ago
      A4E seem to take it okay. That it was a funny image was half the reason I included that part. Chillax.
    - jancsika 5y ago
      > You're imputing a lot of motives based on nothing in the parent comment. To be fair, OP is responding to an ambiguity. Was GP's point that "I Have a Dream" is great and it's a shame that the wider public doesn't know more of MLK's great speeches? Or was the point that "I Have a Dream" is subpar when compared to the other speeches and thus misrepresents his output? tldr; Was GP saying "I Have a Dream" is the "Beethoven's 5th" of speeches, or "Ravel's Bolero" of speeches? Upshot-- OP is not being generous by jumping on the more divisive interpretation. However, since it is a valid interpretation OP's lack of generosity is based on something and not nothing. Fin.
      - watwut 5y ago
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  > We tend to only hear the 'dream' speech Cynically I think there has been a political project to expunge most of King’s ideas from the public memory, leaving only those that everyone is comfortable with. The public image of the man has been watered down to merely opposing segregation and legal discrimination, and all of his more radical economic proposals and opinions tend to be politely ignored. The March on Washington also included a demand for a $2 minimum wage ($17 in 2020 dollars) and self governance for Washington DC, funny how that isn’t mentioned often. Hell, he was helping support a strike when he was assassinated. How many people were taught that before?
  - Taywee 5y ago
    > Cynically I think there has been a political project to expunge most of King’s ideas from the public memory, leaving only those that everyone is comfortable with. I don't think so. I think it's more that things get distilled and simplified in public memory naturally. How much of all of all the activities of other greatly-remembered figures are actually all fully remembered and talked about? Do you think the public has anywhere near a complete perception of all the ideals of Gandhi, Mother Theresa, George Washington, or Abraham Lincoln? Unless you are a scholar in the area, you have done specific research out of curiosity, or you have been personally affected by it, most of what you see is the stuff that echos in the public memory, which is the largest events and purest distillation of the ideals and character of the person in question. Human memory is built on patterns, symbols, and stripping of what seems to be unnecessary extraneous information, and this seems to be much more extreme in cultural memory. I don't think there has been any conscious effort to remove the other ideals that King had, it's just not what he did that people care about most right now.
    - watwut 5y ago
      Imo, memory of other great figures and greatly influenced by politics. And often very intentionally, people using their names have agendas. That includes the three people you mentioned.
  - ralusek 5y ago
    That's because ideas shouldn't be bundled together just because a person said them. The I Have A Dream speech is famous precisely because it is the most important/widely agreed upon of his ideas: evaluate individuals according to their own character independently of whatever collective you might otherwise assume characteristics of. That's a good idea. People like that idea. We don't talk about King's socialism as much, because what he said in that arena wasn't particularly revolutionary, and many people don't find socialism to be compelling (myself included). Hence, remembering ideas.
ethbr0 5y ago
To quote the concluding sentences for those who haven't read the whole speech, and which stand on their own as much as any words do... > "Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it really doesn't matter with me now, because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land! And so I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man! Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord!"
- syngrog66 5y ago
  powerful and chilling. it is as if he knew. he knew his fate. and he sensed it coming soon. and yet he continued his work anyway. exemplar of American heroism
namelezz 5y ago
With all flashy racial movements and Amendments, US still somehow makes it to the bottom 10 countries for racial equality, even worse than a totalitarian country. There is nothing wrong with US racial system. The survey is wrong. You are doing great. Keep heading to that direction. [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-04-13/us-is-one-of-the-10-worst-countries-for-racial-equality https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-04-...
- divbzero 5y ago
  I’m not surprised that people perceive the US to struggle with racial equality when it (a) has indeed struggled with racial equality since founding and through civil war and (b) airs its dirty laundry pretty openly.
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    Yeah, I mean police killing innocent black people on the streets is quite public indeed.
- deleted 5y ago
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krylon 5y ago
I don't disagree with you. But the "I have a dream" speech will live forever as one of the greatest political speeches, if not THE greatest political speech, both in rhetorics, impact, and content. I remember reading that speech in English class (I'm German), and it left me deeply impressed. The only other speech I read that came close to this was Richard von Weizsäcker's speech commemorating the 40th anniversary of Germany's surrender, ending World War II. MLK was one of those very, very rare figures where the power of their ideas (and ethics!) was matched by the power of their voices. I'd really love to know what the world would look like today if he had not been murdered.
- kirse 5y ago
  Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address has to be in that conversation...
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  The popularity of his whitewashing is indeed an impressive meta-political historical feat.
  - pintxo 5y ago
    Care to elaborate?
    - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
      Not OP, but MLK was a pretty radical antiwar socialist who spoke of riots as "the language of the unheard," and stated that most Americans are unconscious racists. The final bit of his "I Have a Dream," speech is all most people know of his words today, but before he was assassinated, he was attempting to call people to much greater action.
      - wesleywt 5y ago
        citation needed.
    - 5y ago

rjsw 5y ago

An interesting comment on MLK published today [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is-revered-today-but-the-real-king-would-make-white-people-uncomfortable https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is...

epivosism 5y ago
pretty vile race baiting. no single argument in the first 4 paragraphs, just hissing implications of racism levelled generically towards people based on their race.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  Agreed. This particular fragment really stood out for me: 'Oh, wait … King made that speech at Grosse Pointe High School, where Michigan’s Republican-controlled House of Representatives recently passed an anti-CRT bill making it illegal to teach that the “United States is a fundamentally racist country”. Never mind.' It is a weird opinion piece, because its arguments are just loosely connected pieces of information ( in the fragment above, geography ). Then again, Guardian political stance is at least very consistent.
  - deanCommie 5y ago
    I think it's a relevant anecdote, don't you? That the very place where King advocated for civil rights 60 years ago is now attempting to white-wash it's racist history. Not every part of the US is. But that one certainly is. Whatever overarching point you want to make about the state of race relations and debate in the United State in the 2020s, it is a fact that in the "Land of the Free", open discussion of historical injustices is being suppressed. I'm sure someone might raise the point that some anti-gay/trans bigotry books are ALSO being suppressed, so I'll preemptively state that these are not the same thing.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      Eh, poetic license has its place and I am more forgiving when it comes to opinion pieces. That said, the anecdote is almost completely irrelevant. At the best, it is trying to use image of MLK and argue the following: "MLK gave a speech here once, therefore making it a sacred ground, where 'nothing we declare bad' can happen". That is not a very convincing argument. I do not see it as relevant even if we lower its status to an anecdote. At best, it is just something that happened. << Whatever overarching point you want to make about the state of race relations and debate in the United State in the 2020s, it is a fact that in the "Land of the Free", open discussion of historical injustices is being suppressed. I am not big on overarching statements, but I will address the one quoted above. If open discussion is being suppressed, we have no one to blame, but ourselves, because we let this happen. Inch by inch, some subjects became impossible to discuss without repercussions. It is absolutely wild given how free this country used to be in terms of speech. We now have kids in universities who self-censor so as not to offend. So yeah, open debate is being suppressed, but probably not the way you want to believe it is.

steve76 5y ago

froggertoaster 5y ago

A great man whose life ended far too early. I only wish the dignity MLK showed would be alive in political movements today. EDIT: to those in the comments suddenly bringing up BLM - I didn't mention a single particular political movement. I think both sides could benefit from a huge dose of dignity tbh.

bigbillheck 5y ago
It's worth reading up on how the protests of the 60s were perceived by whites at the time, and thinking about how that compares to the 2020 protests.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Read 'Letter From a Birmingham Jail'. It could have been written today.
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ttfkam 5y ago
What do you think BLM is? Would it surprise you to learn that the vast majority of the BLM protests in 2020 were completely nonviolent? Or that more than a couple of marches led by MLK were marred by violence? MLK was hated by many at the time. To see why, just look at the comments opposing BLM today. They are conspicuously similar in tone and content.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Precisely. Look at the anti-MLK editorial comic pictured in https://www.cbr.com/martin-luther-king-jr-cartoons-depictions-1960s-media/ https://www.cbr.com/martin-luther-king-jr-cartoons-depiction.... Identical messaging you see used against BLM today; titled "I plan to lead another non-violent march tomorrow" with MLK pictured front of a burning hellscape.
  - 5y ago

Anechoic 5y ago

I appreciate the sentiment for which this was submitted, but in reflecting upon MLKJr's legacy, please realize that he was far more than this one speech. He spoke about workers rights [0], civil rights backlash reparations [1], the dangers of incrementalism in civil rights progress [2], condemnation of the Vietnam war [3], and more [4]. Please resist the temptation to reduce his legacy to an out-of-context " content of their character" and call it a day. And please remember that MLKJr was widely disliked in his time. [5] [0] https://billmoyers.com/story/martin-luther-kings-fight-workers-rights/ https://billmoyers.com/story/martin-luther-kings-fight-worke... [1] https://www.theroot.com/exclusive-martin-luther-king-jr-talks-reparations-wh-1837907942 https://www.theroot.com/exclusive-martin-luther-king-jr-talk... [2] https://letterfromjail.com https://letterfromjail.com [3] https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietnam https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietn... [4] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/how-mlks-multifaceted-view-on-human-rights-still-inspires https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/how-mlks-... [5] https://news.gallup.com/poll/20920/martin-luther-king-jr-revered-more-after-death-than-before.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/20920/martin-luther-king-jr-rev...

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AddisonRyan 5y ago
Indeed, his life was dedicated to defeating three evils: Racism, Militarism, and Poverty. Reducing it to only racism ignores most of what made his work so important.
- zackmorris 5y ago
  With that ignorance fueling the autocolonization we're under today, having extracted the human and material wealth from all the developing nations of the world. Colonizing ourselves through the systems of control that we mastered, regardless of gender, race or creed, driven by the fear of some other doing better than we are.
- hulitu 5y ago
  But this is the point. To show the world that he died for racism. America wants him to be a hero, but an American hero, not a socialist hero. I wonder what opiniob had Dulles about him.

jfengel 5y ago

Unfortunately it is still a dream. I've seen too many people quote only the most famous line as if the dream were already true, as a way to ignore the injustices that King cited. It became better because of King and continued to improve, but it remains a struggle, and many want to reverse what has been achieved.

js2 5y ago

Delivered Aug, 1963. Earlier that year, in April, MLK Jr. wrote "Letter from Birmingham Jail." All I can say is, read it if you haven't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-...

wolverine876 5y ago
Yes, what Dr. King says is born out again and again. It is the code, they key, to much of what is happening today. It is one of the most revelatory, insightful documents I've read in my life.
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heresie-dabord 5y ago
"So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love?" -- MLK Jr Half a century later, I want to add: Will we be extremists for ignorance or for civilisation?

parkingrift 5y ago

>I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Boy have we gone off the rails on this one. Skin color has become a primary way people self identify. Sad.

systemvoltage 5y ago
This is sadly true. Sorry to see this downvoted.
orf 5y ago
He says nothing about self-identification, but about external judgement. Which I guess you're doing here.
- daenz 5y ago
  How you self identify has a massive influence on how people externally judge you.
  - orf 5y ago
    Sure, but that’s on them isn’t it. Should they not identify as their race, religion, creed or culture because you judge them for doing so?
    - daenz 5y ago
      Yes, if that's not what you want to be judged on. When you publicly self identify as something, you are signaling to the world that that is the most relevant lens to view you through.
      - orf 5y ago
        So your judgement on the content of their character is a negative one because they choose to outwardly identify themselves as the race they belong to, and incorporate it into their character? Ok. I guess instead they should suppress that and just act “white” (or whatever the majority race is)?

machinerychorus 5y ago

"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." "Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable... Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals." "Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted." "An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity." "The function of education is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically. Intelligence plus character - that is the goal of true education." "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom." "Any religion that professes to be concerned about the souls of men and is not concerned about the slums that damn them, the economic conditions that strangle them and the social conditions that cripple them is a spiritually moribund religion awaiting burial." "Capitalism does not permit an even flow of economic resources. With this system, a small privileged few are rich beyond conscience, and almost all others are doomed to be poor at some level. That's the way the system works. And since we know that the system will not change the rules, we are going to have to change the system." "The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi." "It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it." "Property is intended to serve life, and no matter how much we surround it with rights and respect, it has no personal being. It is part of the earth man walks on. It is not man." "Don't let anybody make you think God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world." "Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. I am not unmindful of the fact that violence often brings about momentary results. Nations have frequently won their independence in battle. But in spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace." "I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek." "The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood." "Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control." "The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be... The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists."

wolverine876 5y ago

Courage is said to be grace under pressure. As we look around our society today, who has the grace, with the enormous hatred, division, despair, and deceit, to lead and speak to such high ideals - and with concrete strategy, effort, and success? Remember that Dr. King did not know the end of the story; it all could have been a waste of time, a horribly demoralizing defeat. If I recall correctly, King's popularity was underwater when that speech was given - not a national hero like today. What hope did Dr. King have? We can look back on the civil rights successes and MLK, King looked back on no such thing - no such thing had ever happened. They were pushing against centuries of slavery, segregation and lynchings - still ongoing - and yet they stood up against that tide and fought - not with despair, hatred, and violence, but under that incredible, unrelenting pressure they envisioned such incredible grace and held firm to it - and they won. When I feel overwhelmed by today's struggles, when I feel the pressure to compromise my values to despair and demoralization, I remember that courage.

thewarrior 5y ago
MLK was never popular he was considered too left wing, too radical and socialist before he was appropriated and then turned into a mild mannered reformer.
- jknoepfler 5y ago
  By the WASP establishment. He was contemporaneous with Malcolm X. It's important to acknowledge that then as now, he was (and is) considered far too collaborationist and conservative by many of the people he purported to represent.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    A considerably difficult situation for leadership. Think of all the pressures from every direction, from all the voices, all centered on one person. Dr. King had no power beyond a voice - no elected office, no billions of dollars, no control of mass media, etc. And then holding it all together, guiding it, actually implementing strategies through it - and succeeding.

spoonjim 5y ago

Listening to this speech and copying it out by hand with pen and paper will teach you more about storytelling and narrative than 100 startup marketing guides.

criddell 5y ago
"I have a dream, that extended car warranties can be afforded by all and recorded on the blockchain."

thepasswordis 5y ago

Good lord these comments. The man gives perhaps one of the most important speeches in American History, and of course here comes the silicon valley brigade to tell everybody what he really meant. He was speaking to 250,000 people after a massive civil rights march. This is what he chose to say. I don't think we need anybody to interpret it for him.

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nudpiedo 5y ago

A comment as an European outsider to our fellow americans here in HN: I would say this speech is not just american but it belongs to the whole recent western culture as much as May 68, the Carnation Revolution, or the fall from Berlin's wall.

wolverine876 5y ago
What is its presence like in your part of the world? Do people know about it? Do they read it? How is it perceived?
- runarberg 5y ago
  I’m a European that migrated to America a few years ago. MLK is certainly well known where I come from (Scandinavia). His legacy is known by most and his political alignments and are known by most people on the left political spectrum. When people bring up racial injustice in America his name often pops up. However it is not often where his name is connected to the broader context. People on the left might mention him when talking about economic injustice in relation to race in Europe, but I would say it is rare. Sometimes really competent journalists might quite him or bring his historical context, but that is even rarer. He is most often thought off as an American addressing American problems, which I personally think is a pity. I would think his legacy in Scandinavia is about the same as the legacy of Nelson Mandela is to Americans.
- nudpiedo 5y ago
  I would say it is well known by everyone who has a regular amount of general culture. The view of MLK it is without doubts positive, and the social fight he represents it is seen as it was necessary or inevitable, like universal suffrage, feminism and the like (but particular for the cause). In Spain it is indirectly studied together with cultural movements of the XX century and the evolution of society. But not too much or specifically, but as it became a Pop Icon (due its martyrdom, appearance in news, documentaries, or even advertisement spots) everyone would know about it as much as people in America might now about Gandhi just to say an example. Very few people might know specifics of his life, or a very accurate context on how exactly was American society at the time he lived, but undoubtably everyone knows or has heard of MLK, could recognize his face and the first sentence of his speech and the social fight against racial discrimination. What it is not completely understood from American society, for example, is all the nuances and cultural differences regarding racism and daily interactions. For example, people picture racism as black or white dichotomy (forgetting many other issues or different minorities), and they cannot understand why the word “nigger” is taboo and at the same time used constantly in shows by black people themselves, I remember even a youngster who thought that it was kind of joke/slang thing and repeated it aloud without fully comprehend the social taboo around it or degree of ofende that it would have that implied for an american person. In this regard movies and Netflix shows sort of educate people about these topics in American culture. I would say, in spite of everyone fully agreeing with the ideals of MLK, racism or how social integration across different racial groups works, is still understood in different ways and totally depends on the local culture of each country; one example which I found myself crazy: in Spain no one could understand blackfacing as a derogatory action as it is part of some cultural celebrations without any intention of mocking or whatsoever, but in Britain I believe the same action would be understood as a large offense against black or people of color. And still in both countries the majority of its population would agree without hesitation on the ideals that MLK represents. But again, these are cultural differences, the message of MLK is largely accepted and even understood necessary as part of a social society where everyone an be part of and being judged by its personality not by its race. P.D. I hope not to be misunderstood, as I know in America many people is largely sensible to this topic.

mostertoaster 5y ago

It’s sad that this dream has not been realized. Yet if you remember what the day of Nov 5, 2008 felt like. This speech was playing in the background, and the feeling was we were living in the day he dreamed about it. A black man had been elected as the president of the United states. Yet even in that glorious position it was not powerful enough to end the oppression of black people. Is this dream just that? Is it a dream that cannot be achieved. If the president of the United States can’t bring it about well then who can? Or what if it has already been achieved and yet we prefer pretending that it is not. That there is something else in this dream being fulfilled that scares us even more than it not, so we go back to the way it was. I though when Obama was elected we would put the divisive Clinton and Bush years behind us, but instead we’ve grown worse. If anything the cancer has spread more rapidly. Yet I still think MLK’s command is good - “Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.”

ethbr0 5y ago
It's a good point. But I prefer to view it as "Dream as in verb." Followed by the work to realize it. Yes, it's exhausting to see progress clawed forward inch by inch, or simply held steady against backwards pressure, but that's what real change looks like. Those who do that work, day in and day out, for years, are heroes. Every movement needs flashy wins for inspiration and celebration. Because that's how media and the human brain work. But it's important to be clear that those wins are the results of work, yet not the work itself. And that before and after the celebration, the work continues. Eight years cannot be expected to unmake five hundred.
- mostertoaster 5y ago
  See but heres the thing, can 160 unmake 300? You could also argue the work you’re talking about started after the civil war, accelerated during the civil rights era, and culminated in 2008. If you told a recently freed slave that in 150 years a black man would be elected president and that includes nearly half of the white population voting for him. They would’ve looked at that day as a wonderful dream. Yet you are telling them, that day will come but you will not be satisfied. And rightly so they wouldn’t be satisfied. So think even now you’re working towards a dream. Progress was done in 08, but took a step back in 2016. Isn’t it depressing that this dream you’re striving with all your might won’t satisfy even if achieved? Or has the dream been realized. And simply put there is now no excuse. That underneath every time we’re a victim, we are also guilty ourselves.

1cvmask 5y ago

The US government saw and treated him as a domestic terrorist and Russian/communist agent. The NY TImes and mainstream media famously attacked him and he was hated by 75% of Americans. The NSA illegally spied on him and other alleged domestic terrorists: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29968101 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29968101 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/26/nsa-surveillance-anti-vietnam-muhammad-ali-mlk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/26/nsa-surveillan... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-king-had-75-percent-disapproval-rating-year-he-died-180968664/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-kin... He famously called the US government "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/21/king-obama-drones-militarism-sanctions-iran https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/21/king-o... https://theintercept.com/2018/01/15/martin-luther-king-jr-mlk-day-2018/ https://theintercept.com/2018/01/15/martin-luther-king-jr-ml... https://www.history.com/news/martin-luther-king-jr-fbi-j-edgar-hoover-communism https://www.history.com/news/martin-luther-king-jr-fbi-j-edg... https://www.vox.com/2016/1/18/10777146/mlk-day-martin-luther-king https://www.vox.com/2016/1/18/10777146/mlk-day-martin-luther...

jeffbee 5y ago
> He famously called the US government "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." I don't see how this statement could be even remotely controversial, then or now.

DantesKite 5y ago

What I find interesting is how the FBI attempted to blackmail him with the constant cheating he did against his wife and managed to not give in (it was a ridiculous level of infidelity). The FBI embarked on an outrageous power trip in order to keep control over "dissidents” and save for some bad press, the institution has never faced consequences in any meaningful way.

iso1631 5y ago

For the rest of the world who might not be aware why this is up, this is a speech an American Civil rights leader gave about 60 years ago at the height of a lot of issues in the US with race relations. Today in America it's "Martin Luther King day", a public holiday celebrating his birthday (15th Jan), many businesses are closed. He was assassinated in 1968.

GavinMcG 5y ago
"Luther"
- iso1631 5y ago
  Ta. I've heard of him a few times, but it's not really something non-americans can truly grasp.
  - runarberg 5y ago
    I think you are right, I think it is really hard for non-americans (or rather people that don’t live in the USA) to grasp how huge he is. However I do think—at least for Europeans (me being one my self)—your political alignment makes a different how much you’ve heard of him. Basically, the more left leaning you are the more you know him.
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AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Very few businesses close on MLK day. It's pretty much just schools and other government offices.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  They mostly close where I live.
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csense 5y ago

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edmcnulty101 5y ago

My favorite MLK speech is: "Accepting Responsibility for Your Actions." https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/accepting-responsibility-your-actions https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/acc...

civilized 5y ago

There is no need for one-upsmanship on this solemn holiday. Let us celebrate and reaffirm the message of the speech. There is no need to elbow it aside in favor of things you think more important. Let freedom ring.

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xwdv 5y ago

One thing that is fun to think about in alternate history timelines is what if segregation had never really ended and carried forward into the Information Age? Imagine different websites for whites and blacks. You thought responsive design was complicated? Imagine racist design. Perhaps we would have different protocols if a user was white or black. WTCP/WUDP and BTCP/BUDP? Imagine internet architecture being designed such that packets from white users would always be prioritized over black users. Of course, some black hackers could craft VPNs to spoof your connection to appear as a white user and get faster speeds or access forbidden sites. Imagine white hackers creating viruses or cyber attacks but only against black hosts. Really, really crazy stuff to think about.

wolverine876 5y ago
> Imagine different websites for whites and blacks. They exist. Try going on a public platform, such as a gaming platform, and identifying yourself as black. Look at all the most popular people on TikTok, Twitch, etc.

wolverine876 5y ago

This OP is two hours old and has more votes and comments than most of the front page stories, yet it's dropped to the second page. If it's a quirk of the algorithm, I hope the mods can address it manually in this case.