4 ms·

Since this opinion seems near universal, is there any explanation for what the heck Apple is doing?

champagnois 5y ago
They are in the Windows 8 phase of design. They want to merge mouse and keyboard systems with touch systems, and are thusly forcing mouse and keyboard users to use interface conventions that are derived from touch platforms. Mobile platforms benefit more from high contrast, very simple and flat designs. Beyond just the touch screen convenience features -- A significant portion of users is seeig their UI under conditions of extreme sunlight, water droplets, or cracked screen at any given time. These things all inform design choices for mobile. Now then, why is Apple making the same mistake as Microsoft Windows 8 by forcing these design elements onto Desktop and Laptop market segments? Apple doesn't really think of the PC market much. According to their financial reports, they make more money selling chargers for their mobile devices than they do on the entire PC market. The answer, I assume, is apathy.
- arrrg 5y ago
  Apple isn’t merging mouse and keyboard systems, though. Not in macOS. So that hypothesis is complete bunk. This design move is at this point getting to be a decade old. So this explanation from you makes zero sense.
  - slategruen 5y ago
    This. macOS has been in an incremental phase for several years now. Windows 8 was a major overhaul from Microsoft which ended up as a big mistake since they didn't consider the impact of such an overhaul in terms of user experience. macOS on the other hand is quite mature and Apple knows that any major change would hurt users in the end.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Was Big Sur one of those "incremental" updates?
      - jen20 5y ago
        Yes.
      - champagnois 5y ago
        Just an "incremental" update where they added touch screen apps (from the iPhone and iPad) to the desktop and laptop experience. Oh, they also changed the system tray to mimic the touch functionality of iPads 1:1 as well, despite being a (far more precise) mouse pointer controlled system. Incremental they say. I was way off base and taking crazy pills when I saw any relationship between these design elements and touch interfaces.
  - champagnois 5y ago
    The latest design elements feel straight from iPad OS imo. They also have had a focus on allowing iOS installs onto MacOS. This is from BigSur onward. I was mostly describing my feelings and guesses of it.
ryanf 5y ago
It’s not universal, people just don’t bother writing posts with the opposite perspective because it’s boring. Tiger was my first version of OS X and I think what we have now looks much better.
- astrange 5y ago
  The UIs are designed for the monitors of their time and it’s not fair to compare them on the same screen. 2000s computers had shitty TN LCDs with low contrast which is why the UI had so much kitsch.
sbuk 5y ago
It's rose-tinted glasses. Every release meets the same same level of criticism as to how it's the end of macOS, how the interface design is a regression towards infantilism. It has been ever thus, even in the System/OS 7, 8, 9 days. The difference now is that macOS is more mainstream.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  Yep. Everyone is cool with all the change that was necessary to get software to the point where they were most emotionally attached to it, and all change after that is “useless meddling that no one likes and is only done to give PMs and designers a job.”
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    This massively oversimplifies the state of technology and is unfairly dismissive of the significant productivity hit that some changes can inflict on the most loyal and experienced users.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      It’s certainly possible for changes in UI to significantly harm productivity, but you would need to systematically gather evidence to know if this is happening. Whether it’s happening is almost completely independent of anyone’s individual feeling of frustration at needing to learn about and adapt to new UI changes. But more importantly, they existence of change is inherently important to the large-scale advancement of computing over time. Even if it is the case that a certain UI overhaul of a major operating system harmed productivity, the solution is not “permanently halt all software changes after this specific version that I have learned and enjoy using.” We ought to reject arguments that forced stasis is the solution any time changes introduce risk.
      - nitrogen 5y ago
        We ought to reject arguments that forced stasis is the solution any time changes introduce risk. We also ought to reject the idea that forced change is the solution.
asdff 5y ago
Project manager driven decision-making. Everyone wants to make a name for themselves, so every update gets a big UI overhaul even when it doesn't need one. Features get taken away when they don't need to be. Workflows get redone when they don't have to be redone. Imagine if this were to happen for something as important as Bash, people would revolt and fork, but in the big tech world you are beholden to these corporate products. It's not just apple, its everything in big tech. Venmo just released an update where they moved key workflows around for no reason at all, and now I don't have muscle memory for the app anymore, but I'm sure some project manager justified it with telemetry and got a huge bonus for rolling out an update and showing downloads grew by 1% (which they probably would have anyway).
- md_ 5y ago
  “Project” or “product?”
  - astrange 5y ago
    Apple doesn’t have product managers and the project managers don’t make these decisions. (They have regular managers instead.)
jjoonathan 5y ago
The iPhone. Look at the MacOS release feature lists before and after the iPhone. It's pretty clear that the Mac teams got cannibalized and didn't recover for years.

They are in the Windows 8 phase of design. They want to merge mouse and keyboard systems with touch systems, and are thusly forcing mouse and keyboard users to use interface conventions that are derived from touch platforms. Mobile platforms benefit more from high contrast, very simple and flat designs. Beyond just the touch screen convenience features -- A significant portion of users is seeig their UI under conditions of extreme sunlight, water droplets, or cracked screen at any given time. These things all inform design choices for mobile. Now then, why is Apple making the same mistake as Microsoft Windows 8 by forcing these design elements onto Desktop and Laptop market segments? Apple doesn't really think of the PC market much. According to their financial reports, they make more money selling chargers for their mobile devices than they do on the entire PC market. The answer, I assume, is apathy.

arrrg 5y ago
Apple isn’t merging mouse and keyboard systems, though. Not in macOS. So that hypothesis is complete bunk. This design move is at this point getting to be a decade old. So this explanation from you makes zero sense.
- slategruen 5y ago
  This. macOS has been in an incremental phase for several years now. Windows 8 was a major overhaul from Microsoft which ended up as a big mistake since they didn't consider the impact of such an overhaul in terms of user experience. macOS on the other hand is quite mature and Apple knows that any major change would hurt users in the end.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Was Big Sur one of those "incremental" updates?
    - jen20 5y ago
      Yes.
    - champagnois 5y ago
      Just an "incremental" update where they added touch screen apps (from the iPhone and iPad) to the desktop and laptop experience. Oh, they also changed the system tray to mimic the touch functionality of iPads 1:1 as well, despite being a (far more precise) mouse pointer controlled system. Incremental they say. I was way off base and taking crazy pills when I saw any relationship between these design elements and touch interfaces.
- champagnois 5y ago
  The latest design elements feel straight from iPad OS imo. They also have had a focus on allowing iOS installs onto MacOS. This is from BigSur onward. I was mostly describing my feelings and guesses of it.

ryanf 5y ago

It’s not universal, people just don’t bother writing posts with the opposite perspective because it’s boring. Tiger was my first version of OS X and I think what we have now looks much better.

astrange 5y ago
The UIs are designed for the monitors of their time and it’s not fair to compare them on the same screen. 2000s computers had shitty TN LCDs with low contrast which is why the UI had so much kitsch.

sbuk 5y ago

It's rose-tinted glasses. Every release meets the same same level of criticism as to how it's the end of macOS, how the interface design is a regression towards infantilism. It has been ever thus, even in the System/OS 7, 8, 9 days. The difference now is that macOS is more mainstream.

tshaddox 5y ago
Yep. Everyone is cool with all the change that was necessary to get software to the point where they were most emotionally attached to it, and all change after that is “useless meddling that no one likes and is only done to give PMs and designers a job.”
- nitrogen 5y ago
  This massively oversimplifies the state of technology and is unfairly dismissive of the significant productivity hit that some changes can inflict on the most loyal and experienced users.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    It’s certainly possible for changes in UI to significantly harm productivity, but you would need to systematically gather evidence to know if this is happening. Whether it’s happening is almost completely independent of anyone’s individual feeling of frustration at needing to learn about and adapt to new UI changes. But more importantly, they existence of change is inherently important to the large-scale advancement of computing over time. Even if it is the case that a certain UI overhaul of a major operating system harmed productivity, the solution is not “permanently halt all software changes after this specific version that I have learned and enjoy using.” We ought to reject arguments that forced stasis is the solution any time changes introduce risk.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      We ought to reject arguments that forced stasis is the solution any time changes introduce risk. We also ought to reject the idea that forced change is the solution.

asdff 5y ago

Project manager driven decision-making. Everyone wants to make a name for themselves, so every update gets a big UI overhaul even when it doesn't need one. Features get taken away when they don't need to be. Workflows get redone when they don't have to be redone. Imagine if this were to happen for something as important as Bash, people would revolt and fork, but in the big tech world you are beholden to these corporate products. It's not just apple, its everything in big tech. Venmo just released an update where they moved key workflows around for no reason at all, and now I don't have muscle memory for the app anymore, but I'm sure some project manager justified it with telemetry and got a huge bonus for rolling out an update and showing downloads grew by 1% (which they probably would have anyway).

md_ 5y ago
“Project” or “product?”
- astrange 5y ago
  Apple doesn’t have product managers and the project managers don’t make these decisions. (They have regular managers instead.)

jjoonathan 5y ago

The iPhone. Look at the MacOS release feature lists before and after the iPhone. It's pretty clear that the Mac teams got cannibalized and didn't recover for years.