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These people are arguing with you over something so basic as common decency and acknowledgement of casual racism. Even here on HN, we are not immune to the dens

These people are arguing with you over something so basic as common decency and acknowledgement of casual racism. Even here on HN, we are not immune to the density of the ego.

Jensson 5y ago
Nobody here said that racism against Indians doesn't exist. But this post isn't an example of that. Right now all you guys are accomplishing is making people feel you are over entitled and not that you are fighting racism. I've seen many people complain about racism against Indians here on HN rightfully, there is no reason to assume Indians are bad or speak as if Indian developers are bad and many people still do those things. But this post isn't one of those racist posts, this post is completely reasonable.
- throwaway413 5y ago
  And you can think that, just like people can think you are racist for telling Indians what they can and can’t find reasonable about their own stereotypes. “I should hire some bottom of the barrel bootcamp graduates”. Bootcamp graduates in this example is a derogatory name for sub-par devs. We know this because there is a stigma around bootcamp devs in the industry. If you said this, no one is doing the mental gymnastics of “oh, they are separating the great bootcampers from the bottom of the barrel”. No, they assume you look down on bootcamps. Context matters. History matters. Saying “bottom of the barrel Indian devs” in todays software industry, is a racist remark.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > Context matters. Right. And the context in this case is cost to run a company with a given headcount. The cost of 200 bottom of the barrel developers in America and 200 bottom of the barrel developers in India is substantial, which is why you have to include the location in this context. If the context was talking about the efficiency of developers instead of cost you would have a point, but it isn't.
    - throwaway413 5y ago
      “Bottom of the barrel devs in India” !== “bottom of the barrel Indian devs” Way to move the goal posts. Do I need to explain this? You’ve contextualized the bucket in your new statement. Why do you think that efficiency difference exists in the first place? Maybe because Indian/Asian developers are not valued as much as other parts of the world. Almost as if people treat and talk about them like the bottom of the barrel… It’s a cycle that you continue to enforce by using that terminology.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        throwaway413 5y ago
        Where did I assume bad intention? I explicitly said mistakes happen, chalking it up to accidental wording. Two comments up. [1] And yes, I went very far out of my way to comment on the website I visit multiple times a day. You can continue doing your word gymnastics. Again, “devs stationed in India” !== “Indian devs”. Yes, words are ambiguous, which is why it is important we try to get them right! [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29957642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29957642
        Jensson 5y ago
        You are right he could have been more clear, but the backlash here is unwarranted since there was no way that comment was racist. Instead they should just have pointed out that he could have phrased the comment better, but assuming he is racist just because he phrased it poorly like many others here do is just toxic. It is very clear what he meant if you think a bit.
        throwaway413 5y ago
  - geodel 5y ago
    > Context matters. History matters. More than that it seems outrage matters. That's what you are trying to do here.
    - throwaway413 5y ago
kodah 5y ago
I'd say the phrasing is casually racist. I hear nasty shit said about "white men" near-daily these days and I think of it in the same terms. Do these people think or mean to be racist? Maybe not, but it really doesn't matter.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway413 5y ago
  Agree it’s the same thing! Two wrongs don’t make a right. Others behavior does not excuse my own. In this instance we are not talking about white men though so to use that as a counter argument would be plain whataboutism, but I understand you have not done that and have blasted casual racism altogether. Fair enough, and I agree.

These people are arguing with you over something so basic as common decency and acknowledgement of casual racism. Even here on HN, we are not immune to the density of the ego.

Jensson 5y ago

Nobody here said that racism against Indians doesn't exist. But this post isn't an example of that. Right now all you guys are accomplishing is making people feel you are over entitled and not that you are fighting racism. I've seen many people complain about racism against Indians here on HN rightfully, there is no reason to assume Indians are bad or speak as if Indian developers are bad and many people still do those things. But this post isn't one of those racist posts, this post is completely reasonable.

throwaway413 5y ago
And you can think that, just like people can think you are racist for telling Indians what they can and can’t find reasonable about their own stereotypes. “I should hire some bottom of the barrel bootcamp graduates”. Bootcamp graduates in this example is a derogatory name for sub-par devs. We know this because there is a stigma around bootcamp devs in the industry. If you said this, no one is doing the mental gymnastics of “oh, they are separating the great bootcampers from the bottom of the barrel”. No, they assume you look down on bootcamps. Context matters. History matters. Saying “bottom of the barrel Indian devs” in todays software industry, is a racist remark.
- Jensson 5y ago
  > Context matters. Right. And the context in this case is cost to run a company with a given headcount. The cost of 200 bottom of the barrel developers in America and 200 bottom of the barrel developers in India is substantial, which is why you have to include the location in this context. If the context was talking about the efficiency of developers instead of cost you would have a point, but it isn't.
  - throwaway413 5y ago
    “Bottom of the barrel devs in India” !== “bottom of the barrel Indian devs” Way to move the goal posts. Do I need to explain this? You’ve contextualized the bucket in your new statement. Why do you think that efficiency difference exists in the first place? Maybe because Indian/Asian developers are not valued as much as other parts of the world. Almost as if people treat and talk about them like the bottom of the barrel… It’s a cycle that you continue to enforce by using that terminology.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      - throwaway413 5y ago
        Where did I assume bad intention? I explicitly said mistakes happen, chalking it up to accidental wording. Two comments up. [1] And yes, I went very far out of my way to comment on the website I visit multiple times a day. You can continue doing your word gymnastics. Again, “devs stationed in India” !== “Indian devs”. Yes, words are ambiguous, which is why it is important we try to get them right! [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29957642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29957642
        Jensson 5y ago
        You are right he could have been more clear, but the backlash here is unwarranted since there was no way that comment was racist. Instead they should just have pointed out that he could have phrased the comment better, but assuming he is racist just because he phrased it poorly like many others here do is just toxic. It is very clear what he meant if you think a bit.
        throwaway413 5y ago
- geodel 5y ago
  > Context matters. History matters. More than that it seems outrage matters. That's what you are trying to do here.
  - throwaway413 5y ago

kodah 5y ago

I'd say the phrasing is casually racist. I hear nasty shit said about "white men" near-daily these days and I think of it in the same terms. Do these people think or mean to be racist? Maybe not, but it really doesn't matter.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwaway413 5y ago
Agree it’s the same thing! Two wrongs don’t make a right. Others behavior does not excuse my own. In this instance we are not talking about white men though so to use that as a counter argument would be plain whataboutism, but I understand you have not done that and have blasted casual racism altogether. Fair enough, and I agree.