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> Find it in your heart to be angered by injustice, rather than by the reaction against it. Yes, there is injustice in the world. For example, right now there

> Find it in your heart to be angered by injustice, rather than by the reaction against it. Yes, there is injustice in the world. For example, right now there are people in concentration camps being enslaved and forced to do work making goods for big corporations, with the goods then being sold on the shelves of your local supermarket. Or another example: right now there are massive corporations that unfairly make billions of dollars through rent-seeking. Often this involves bribing politicians to get a favourable regulatory environment. (Note that I am not complaining about companies that get rich making thinks people want, but only about one that get rich through rent-seeking). A third example: in the USA the healthcare system costs per capita more than in any other country in the world, yet Americans have worse health -- for example they die earlier -- than in the vast majority of rich countries. This system continues to exist because it serves well the section of the ruling class that owns/runs the healthcare industry, even though many die every year because of it. There are real injustices in the world, real things that could be fixed to make people's lives better. Find it in your heart to care about these things, rather than merely engaging in performative sanctimoniousness about the phrase “It ain’t over till the fat lady sings”. If woke people diverted their energy to finding real solutions to real problems rather than virtue climbing, they'd probably be able to cause significant good in the world. But as I see it their effect is mostly negative.

igorkraw 5y ago
We can multitask. All of these are bad, but it seems to me, you are wasting energy being angry at this person dealing with her problems of choice instead of fixing the ones you use here as a cludgel. How are is shutting this person up going to help fixing there wrongs?
- PontifexMinimus 5y ago
  > you are wasting energy being angry at this person dealing with her problems of choice instead of fixing the ones you use here as a cludgel I have in the past spent thousands of hours and thousands of pounds attempting to fix some of these issues. > How are is shutting this person up going to help fixing there wrongs? I don't want to shut them up, I want to redirect their energy to things that are productive.
  - igorkraw 5y ago
    Following the link in your profile, I'll believe you and thank you However I still do not agree that it helps the greater cause do dismiss identity politics aggressively. Let them right their fight, fight yours, collaborate where possible.
    - PontifexMinimus 5y ago
      > I still do not agree that it helps the greater cause do dismiss identity politics aggressively. I think that in some cases the woke identity politics not only doesn't help, it actively hinders things.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        But you certainly don't feel the need to back that up with any kind of objective evidence.
        PontifexMinimus 5y ago
        Here is some objective evidence[1] that woke rhetoric pisses off voters and allows people like Donald Trump and Boris Johnson to get elected: > Blue-collar workers are especially sensitive to candidate messaging — and respond even more acutely to the differences between populist and “woke” language. Primarily manual blue-collar workers, in comparison with primarily white-collar workers, were even more drawn to candidates who stressed bread-and-butter issues, and who avoided activist rhetoric. (Via [2], second segment) If you are an intellectually honest person, you'll admit you were wrong, and that I have backed it up with objective evidence. [1]: https://jacobinmag.com/2021/11/common-sense-solidarity-working-class-voting-report https://jacobinmag.com/2021/11/common-sense-solidarity-worki... [2]: https://pontifex.substack.com/p/links-15-cash-for-peerages-and-illegal https://pontifex.substack.com/p/links-15-cash-for-peerages-a...
        igorkraw 5y ago
        Leaving the strategic timing of identity politics out of this, do you in principle agree that this type of backlash is a sign of the need for some form of "woke activism" so the idea of gender equality, trans right, minority rights etc isn't met with what are effectively temper tantrums (without meaning this dismissively if you can believe it, simply as a coding of "emotionally driven, self destructive acts")? Because I'm inclined to put at least some of the responsibility for getting Trump elected on those who vote for Trump when faced with a view they don't like. Last sentence emphasis: this is not about the strategic timing of when and how, just about the acknowledgement that "you should stop asking for these political goals otherwise I'll vote for trump again" is not something a respected person for whom identity politics isn't required would be facing
dgabriel 5y ago
This is whataboutism; you have no proof that people who care about one thing don't also care about other things. Also, calling people you disagree with "woke" and claiming they "virtue climb" (what does that even mean??) is intellectually lazy.
- PontifexMinimus 5y ago
  > calling people you disagree with "woke" I'm not calling user-the-name woke because I disagree with them, but because that appears to me to be an accurate description of the ideology they subscribe to. (Just like if someone advocated allocating resources by central planning instead of markets I might call them a communist; or if they wanted to abolish all states I might call them an anarchist.) > they "virtue climb" (what does that even mean??) It means attempt to appear virtuous in order to increase social status.
user-the-name 5y ago
"As you see it" indeed.

igorkraw 5y ago

We can multitask. All of these are bad, but it seems to me, you are wasting energy being angry at this person dealing with her problems of choice instead of fixing the ones you use here as a cludgel. How are is shutting this person up going to help fixing there wrongs?

PontifexMinimus 5y ago
> you are wasting energy being angry at this person dealing with her problems of choice instead of fixing the ones you use here as a cludgel I have in the past spent thousands of hours and thousands of pounds attempting to fix some of these issues. > How are is shutting this person up going to help fixing there wrongs? I don't want to shut them up, I want to redirect their energy to things that are productive.
- igorkraw 5y ago
  Following the link in your profile, I'll believe you and thank you However I still do not agree that it helps the greater cause do dismiss identity politics aggressively. Let them right their fight, fight yours, collaborate where possible.
  - PontifexMinimus 5y ago
    > I still do not agree that it helps the greater cause do dismiss identity politics aggressively. I think that in some cases the woke identity politics not only doesn't help, it actively hinders things.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      But you certainly don't feel the need to back that up with any kind of objective evidence.
      - PontifexMinimus 5y ago
        Here is some objective evidence[1] that woke rhetoric pisses off voters and allows people like Donald Trump and Boris Johnson to get elected: > Blue-collar workers are especially sensitive to candidate messaging — and respond even more acutely to the differences between populist and “woke” language. Primarily manual blue-collar workers, in comparison with primarily white-collar workers, were even more drawn to candidates who stressed bread-and-butter issues, and who avoided activist rhetoric. (Via [2], second segment) If you are an intellectually honest person, you'll admit you were wrong, and that I have backed it up with objective evidence. [1]: https://jacobinmag.com/2021/11/common-sense-solidarity-working-class-voting-report https://jacobinmag.com/2021/11/common-sense-solidarity-worki... [2]: https://pontifex.substack.com/p/links-15-cash-for-peerages-and-illegal https://pontifex.substack.com/p/links-15-cash-for-peerages-a...
        igorkraw 5y ago
        Leaving the strategic timing of identity politics out of this, do you in principle agree that this type of backlash is a sign of the need for some form of "woke activism" so the idea of gender equality, trans right, minority rights etc isn't met with what are effectively temper tantrums (without meaning this dismissively if you can believe it, simply as a coding of "emotionally driven, self destructive acts")? Because I'm inclined to put at least some of the responsibility for getting Trump elected on those who vote for Trump when faced with a view they don't like. Last sentence emphasis: this is not about the strategic timing of when and how, just about the acknowledgement that "you should stop asking for these political goals otherwise I'll vote for trump again" is not something a respected person for whom identity politics isn't required would be facing

dgabriel 5y ago

This is whataboutism; you have no proof that people who care about one thing don't also care about other things. Also, calling people you disagree with "woke" and claiming they "virtue climb" (what does that even mean??) is intellectually lazy.

PontifexMinimus 5y ago
> calling people you disagree with "woke" I'm not calling user-the-name woke because I disagree with them, but because that appears to me to be an accurate description of the ideology they subscribe to. (Just like if someone advocated allocating resources by central planning instead of markets I might call them a communist; or if they wanted to abolish all states I might call them an anarchist.) > they "virtue climb" (what does that even mean??) It means attempt to appear virtuous in order to increase social status.

user-the-name 5y ago

"As you see it" indeed.