5 ms·

Of course they would, it's called tax.

by nathias 5y ago

xxs 5y ago
How do you tax the bitcoins?
- plebianRube 5y ago
  And that's the problem China and governments banning it have. There is no easy way to force someone to give it up, since it can't be taken by force.
  - arlcode 5y ago
    Uuuh the large scale mining operations can easily be detected through their power use. Then warrants can be served equipment can be confiscated and people be put in front of a judge
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    > There is no easy way to force someone to give it up Isn't it about as difficult as asking someone for their cash? People aren't happy to part with it, but the $5 xkcd wrench usually does it. You can hide a paper wallet or storage medium in a sock at a friend's house, but that's no different from cash. Cash is also easy to spend anonymously; try hiding a bitcoin transaction from others or make its traces vanish to avoid problems later. I don't foresee many issues with banning bitcoin at all, it's more of a political problem.
    - xxs 5y ago
      Cash is highly regulated, in a lot of EU countries it's not even possible to spend too much cash in a shop in a single transaction. Cash transactions over XXX amount (few thousands) require identity and they have to be reported by the seller as well. Carrying over 10k euro in cash has to be declared during air travel too.
  - ajross 5y ago
    That argument runs afoul of: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ In the real world refusal to pay a fine or surrender an item is itself a crime and punishable with state power. You're right that the government can't extract crypto assets without the consent of those controlling the relevant keys. You're forgetting the depth of ability of a government to compel consent.
    - nefitty 5y ago
      This simple fact dismantles a pillar of crypto evangelism. No, you, can't exist outside of society and its influence, even if your "money" is digital.
    - Zerverus 5y ago
      This. On top of it all the evidence needed to charge you for years to come is conveniently left on the immutable blockchain. These are just bullshit libertarian feel good narratives that are as realistic as people declaring themselves sovereign citizens
  - quickthrowman 5y ago
    “I remand you to the custody of the prison system until you reveal your Bitcoin wallet passphrase.” Now the detainee gets to choose between remaining in prison or giving up their assets.
    - xxs 5y ago
      >in prison or giving up their assets. This is too much a TV show story. Since the state doesn't really know how much bitcoins they have, the key owner can share only a fraction of their wallets (and they can have as many wallets as they please). Without crypto currency being regulated, state can seize the physical assets but getting all the bitcoins is highly unlikely.
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    Everyone who owns cryptocurrency is cashing out to dollars, euros RMB etc because you can't use memecoins to buy a Lamborghini. That is cryptocurrency's point of failure.
    - politician 5y ago
      No, but you use it to exchange titles at low cost with a global market.
  - Zerverus 5y ago
    China banned it for urgent energy reasons. Taxing it is easy, tax the transaction which is public on the blockchain. Institute KYC rules and enforce them, punishing anyone who holds an anonymous wallet. Bitcoin isn’t some magical thing; the old crowbars reverse engineering works even better on it since all transactions are public on the blockchain forever.
- nathias 5y ago
  You don't, you tax mining as an economic activity with profit like any other.
  - xxs 5y ago
    you get bitcoins in, pay with bitcoins out, (mind you effectively untraceable); take them out of the country as well. The thing will out generate money, until the government recognizes bitcoins as an asset and requires moving those assets to be centralized, tracked, you can't do anything about. So prior taxation, it has to be regulated.
    - nathias 5y ago
      No not really, miners pay electricity with cash, they are constantly selling at least the cost amount of whatever they mine. Also big mining facillities are really easily traceable.
- krzyk 5y ago
  Sales tax, VAT. They need to eat, buy cars, houses. If they have more money they buy more -> more tax income.
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    Sales tax is regressive, so that doesn't add up.
    - krzyk 5y ago
      How it is regressive? It is quite equal percent-wise, how all taxes should be.
  - C19is20 5y ago
    I don't think you know Kosovo.
glogla 5y ago
They don't even pay for electricity, you think they pay taxes?
- nathias 5y ago
  So why would it then matter to make mining illegal? Tax evasion and theft are already illegal.

Of course they would, it's called tax.

xxs 5y ago

How do you tax the bitcoins?

plebianRube 5y ago
And that's the problem China and governments banning it have. There is no easy way to force someone to give it up, since it can't be taken by force.
- arlcode 5y ago
  Uuuh the large scale mining operations can easily be detected through their power use. Then warrants can be served equipment can be confiscated and people be put in front of a judge
- lucb1e 5y ago
  > There is no easy way to force someone to give it up Isn't it about as difficult as asking someone for their cash? People aren't happy to part with it, but the $5 xkcd wrench usually does it. You can hide a paper wallet or storage medium in a sock at a friend's house, but that's no different from cash. Cash is also easy to spend anonymously; try hiding a bitcoin transaction from others or make its traces vanish to avoid problems later. I don't foresee many issues with banning bitcoin at all, it's more of a political problem.
  - xxs 5y ago
    Cash is highly regulated, in a lot of EU countries it's not even possible to spend too much cash in a shop in a single transaction. Cash transactions over XXX amount (few thousands) require identity and they have to be reported by the seller as well. Carrying over 10k euro in cash has to be declared during air travel too.
- ajross 5y ago
  That argument runs afoul of: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ In the real world refusal to pay a fine or surrender an item is itself a crime and punishable with state power. You're right that the government can't extract crypto assets without the consent of those controlling the relevant keys. You're forgetting the depth of ability of a government to compel consent.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    This simple fact dismantles a pillar of crypto evangelism. No, you, can't exist outside of society and its influence, even if your "money" is digital.
  - Zerverus 5y ago
    This. On top of it all the evidence needed to charge you for years to come is conveniently left on the immutable blockchain. These are just bullshit libertarian feel good narratives that are as realistic as people declaring themselves sovereign citizens
- quickthrowman 5y ago
  “I remand you to the custody of the prison system until you reveal your Bitcoin wallet passphrase.” Now the detainee gets to choose between remaining in prison or giving up their assets.
  - xxs 5y ago
    >in prison or giving up their assets. This is too much a TV show story. Since the state doesn't really know how much bitcoins they have, the key owner can share only a fraction of their wallets (and they can have as many wallets as they please). Without crypto currency being regulated, state can seize the physical assets but getting all the bitcoins is highly unlikely.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Everyone who owns cryptocurrency is cashing out to dollars, euros RMB etc because you can't use memecoins to buy a Lamborghini. That is cryptocurrency's point of failure.
  - politician 5y ago
    No, but you use it to exchange titles at low cost with a global market.
- Zerverus 5y ago
  China banned it for urgent energy reasons. Taxing it is easy, tax the transaction which is public on the blockchain. Institute KYC rules and enforce them, punishing anyone who holds an anonymous wallet. Bitcoin isn’t some magical thing; the old crowbars reverse engineering works even better on it since all transactions are public on the blockchain forever.
nathias 5y ago
You don't, you tax mining as an economic activity with profit like any other.
- xxs 5y ago
  you get bitcoins in, pay with bitcoins out, (mind you effectively untraceable); take them out of the country as well. The thing will out generate money, until the government recognizes bitcoins as an asset and requires moving those assets to be centralized, tracked, you can't do anything about. So prior taxation, it has to be regulated.
  - nathias 5y ago
    No not really, miners pay electricity with cash, they are constantly selling at least the cost amount of whatever they mine. Also big mining facillities are really easily traceable.
krzyk 5y ago
Sales tax, VAT. They need to eat, buy cars, houses. If they have more money they buy more -> more tax income.
- SantalBlush 5y ago
  Sales tax is regressive, so that doesn't add up.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    How it is regressive? It is quite equal percent-wise, how all taxes should be.
- C19is20 5y ago
  I don't think you know Kosovo.

glogla 5y ago

They don't even pay for electricity, you think they pay taxes?

nathias 5y ago
So why would it then matter to make mining illegal? Tax evasion and theft are already illegal.