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> "There are a lot of people who have invested in crypto mining equipment and it’s not a small investment," cryptoKapo said. "People have even taken out loans t

by foepys 5y ago

> "There are a lot of people who have invested in crypto mining equipment and it’s not a small investment," cryptoKapo said. "People have even taken out loans to invest and the impact now is very bad on their lives." Well, risk evaluation is part of founding a company. Sucks to be them but there is no need to keep having rolling blackouts just because some people didn't do their research.

axiosgunnar 5y ago
What would they have done if the ban did not occur and they raked in lots of cash? Would they have donated it to the Kosovan public? Of course not. So they should not expect bailouts from the Kosovan public now.
- nathias 5y ago
  Of course they would, it's called tax.
  - xxs 5y ago
    How do you tax the bitcoins?
    - plebianRube 5y ago
      And that's the problem China and governments banning it have. There is no easy way to force someone to give it up, since it can't be taken by force.
      - arlcode 5y ago
        Uuuh the large scale mining operations can easily be detected through their power use. Then warrants can be served equipment can be confiscated and people be put in front of a judge
      - lucb1e 5y ago
        > There is no easy way to force someone to give it up Isn't it about as difficult as asking someone for their cash? People aren't happy to part with it, but the $5 xkcd wrench usually does it. You can hide a paper wallet or storage medium in a sock at a friend's house, but that's no different from cash. Cash is also easy to spend anonymously; try hiding a bitcoin transaction from others or make its traces vanish to avoid problems later. I don't foresee many issues with banning bitcoin at all, it's more of a political problem.
        xxs 5y ago
        Cash is highly regulated, in a lot of EU countries it's not even possible to spend too much cash in a shop in a single transaction. Cash transactions over XXX amount (few thousands) require identity and they have to be reported by the seller as well. Carrying over 10k euro in cash has to be declared during air travel too.
      - ajross 5y ago
        That argument runs afoul of: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ In the real world refusal to pay a fine or surrender an item is itself a crime and punishable with state power. You're right that the government can't extract crypto assets without the consent of those controlling the relevant keys. You're forgetting the depth of ability of a government to compel consent.
        nefitty 5y ago
        This simple fact dismantles a pillar of crypto evangelism. No, you, can't exist outside of society and its influence, even if your "money" is digital.
        Zerverus 5y ago
        This. On top of it all the evidence needed to charge you for years to come is conveniently left on the immutable blockchain. These are just bullshit libertarian feel good narratives that are as realistic as people declaring themselves sovereign citizens
      - quickthrowman 5y ago
        “I remand you to the custody of the prison system until you reveal your Bitcoin wallet passphrase.” Now the detainee gets to choose between remaining in prison or giving up their assets.
        xxs 5y ago
        >in prison or giving up their assets. This is too much a TV show story. Since the state doesn't really know how much bitcoins they have, the key owner can share only a fraction of their wallets (and they can have as many wallets as they please). Without crypto currency being regulated, state can seize the physical assets but getting all the bitcoins is highly unlikely.
      - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
        Everyone who owns cryptocurrency is cashing out to dollars, euros RMB etc because you can't use memecoins to buy a Lamborghini. That is cryptocurrency's point of failure.
        politician 5y ago
        No, but you use it to exchange titles at low cost with a global market.
      - Zerverus 5y ago
        China banned it for urgent energy reasons. Taxing it is easy, tax the transaction which is public on the blockchain. Institute KYC rules and enforce them, punishing anyone who holds an anonymous wallet. Bitcoin isn’t some magical thing; the old crowbars reverse engineering works even better on it since all transactions are public on the blockchain forever.
    - nathias 5y ago
      You don't, you tax mining as an economic activity with profit like any other.
      - xxs 5y ago
        you get bitcoins in, pay with bitcoins out, (mind you effectively untraceable); take them out of the country as well. The thing will out generate money, until the government recognizes bitcoins as an asset and requires moving those assets to be centralized, tracked, you can't do anything about. So prior taxation, it has to be regulated.
        nathias 5y ago
        No not really, miners pay electricity with cash, they are constantly selling at least the cost amount of whatever they mine. Also big mining facillities are really easily traceable.
    - krzyk 5y ago
      Sales tax, VAT. They need to eat, buy cars, houses. If they have more money they buy more -> more tax income.
      - SantalBlush 5y ago
        Sales tax is regressive, so that doesn't add up.
        krzyk 5y ago
        How it is regressive? It is quite equal percent-wise, how all taxes should be.
      - C19is20 5y ago
        I don't think you know Kosovo.
  - glogla 5y ago
    They don't even pay for electricity, you think they pay taxes?
    - nathias 5y ago
      So why would it then matter to make mining illegal? Tax evasion and theft are already illegal.
- edanm 5y ago
  To be fair, that's not a valid question. Even if a company wouldn't donate any of their profits, if they make an investment based on laws, and the government then changes those laws to make what they are doing illegal, that's still an outcome that we should avoid; both out of a sense of fairness, but also out of self-interest, otherwise people will make fewer investments, which is a bad thing. (Though no idea on the details in this specific case - I just dislike this question and its invalid assumption.)
  - pmyteh 5y ago
    Change of law risk is also a business risk. You can see this most clearly in situations like companies constructing tax avoidance schemes. Everyone involved knows that the law may well be changed to close the loophole being used. So the question is whether you can make a profit off the scheme before then. Ditto if you're a brewer and the state changes the alcohol laws in some unhelpful way. The situation here isn't that different.
    - edanm 5y ago
      I agree completely. Businesses need to "price in" these possibilities. But, I was answering the conclusion of parent's post: > So they should not expect bailouts from the Kosovan public now. Bailouts might make sense if the government broke an implicit or explicit promise to the company about what kind of business can be done.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    I see, good point.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
The mining equipment value hasn’t gone to $0. The miners who dismantle their rigs are just going to sell it off to someone in another country.

by foepys 5y ago

axiosgunnar 5y ago

What would they have done if the ban did not occur and they raked in lots of cash? Would they have donated it to the Kosovan public? Of course not. So they should not expect bailouts from the Kosovan public now.

nathias 5y ago
Of course they would, it's called tax.
- xxs 5y ago
  How do you tax the bitcoins?
  - plebianRube 5y ago
    And that's the problem China and governments banning it have. There is no easy way to force someone to give it up, since it can't be taken by force.
    - arlcode 5y ago
      Uuuh the large scale mining operations can easily be detected through their power use. Then warrants can be served equipment can be confiscated and people be put in front of a judge
    - lucb1e 5y ago
      > There is no easy way to force someone to give it up Isn't it about as difficult as asking someone for their cash? People aren't happy to part with it, but the $5 xkcd wrench usually does it. You can hide a paper wallet or storage medium in a sock at a friend's house, but that's no different from cash. Cash is also easy to spend anonymously; try hiding a bitcoin transaction from others or make its traces vanish to avoid problems later. I don't foresee many issues with banning bitcoin at all, it's more of a political problem.
      - xxs 5y ago
        Cash is highly regulated, in a lot of EU countries it's not even possible to spend too much cash in a shop in a single transaction. Cash transactions over XXX amount (few thousands) require identity and they have to be reported by the seller as well. Carrying over 10k euro in cash has to be declared during air travel too.
    - ajross 5y ago
      That argument runs afoul of: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ In the real world refusal to pay a fine or surrender an item is itself a crime and punishable with state power. You're right that the government can't extract crypto assets without the consent of those controlling the relevant keys. You're forgetting the depth of ability of a government to compel consent.
      - nefitty 5y ago
        This simple fact dismantles a pillar of crypto evangelism. No, you, can't exist outside of society and its influence, even if your "money" is digital.
      - Zerverus 5y ago
        This. On top of it all the evidence needed to charge you for years to come is conveniently left on the immutable blockchain. These are just bullshit libertarian feel good narratives that are as realistic as people declaring themselves sovereign citizens
    - quickthrowman 5y ago
      “I remand you to the custody of the prison system until you reveal your Bitcoin wallet passphrase.” Now the detainee gets to choose between remaining in prison or giving up their assets.
      - xxs 5y ago
        >in prison or giving up their assets. This is too much a TV show story. Since the state doesn't really know how much bitcoins they have, the key owner can share only a fraction of their wallets (and they can have as many wallets as they please). Without crypto currency being regulated, state can seize the physical assets but getting all the bitcoins is highly unlikely.
    - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
      Everyone who owns cryptocurrency is cashing out to dollars, euros RMB etc because you can't use memecoins to buy a Lamborghini. That is cryptocurrency's point of failure.
      - politician 5y ago
        No, but you use it to exchange titles at low cost with a global market.
    - Zerverus 5y ago
      China banned it for urgent energy reasons. Taxing it is easy, tax the transaction which is public on the blockchain. Institute KYC rules and enforce them, punishing anyone who holds an anonymous wallet. Bitcoin isn’t some magical thing; the old crowbars reverse engineering works even better on it since all transactions are public on the blockchain forever.
  - nathias 5y ago
    You don't, you tax mining as an economic activity with profit like any other.
    - xxs 5y ago
      you get bitcoins in, pay with bitcoins out, (mind you effectively untraceable); take them out of the country as well. The thing will out generate money, until the government recognizes bitcoins as an asset and requires moving those assets to be centralized, tracked, you can't do anything about. So prior taxation, it has to be regulated.
      - nathias 5y ago
        No not really, miners pay electricity with cash, they are constantly selling at least the cost amount of whatever they mine. Also big mining facillities are really easily traceable.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    Sales tax, VAT. They need to eat, buy cars, houses. If they have more money they buy more -> more tax income.
    - SantalBlush 5y ago
      Sales tax is regressive, so that doesn't add up.
      - krzyk 5y ago
        How it is regressive? It is quite equal percent-wise, how all taxes should be.
    - C19is20 5y ago
      I don't think you know Kosovo.
- glogla 5y ago
  They don't even pay for electricity, you think they pay taxes?
  - nathias 5y ago
    So why would it then matter to make mining illegal? Tax evasion and theft are already illegal.
edanm 5y ago
To be fair, that's not a valid question. Even if a company wouldn't donate any of their profits, if they make an investment based on laws, and the government then changes those laws to make what they are doing illegal, that's still an outcome that we should avoid; both out of a sense of fairness, but also out of self-interest, otherwise people will make fewer investments, which is a bad thing. (Though no idea on the details in this specific case - I just dislike this question and its invalid assumption.)
- pmyteh 5y ago
  Change of law risk is also a business risk. You can see this most clearly in situations like companies constructing tax avoidance schemes. Everyone involved knows that the law may well be changed to close the loophole being used. So the question is whether you can make a profit off the scheme before then. Ditto if you're a brewer and the state changes the alcohol laws in some unhelpful way. The situation here isn't that different.
  - edanm 5y ago
    I agree completely. Businesses need to "price in" these possibilities. But, I was answering the conclusion of parent's post: > So they should not expect bailouts from the Kosovan public now. Bailouts might make sense if the government broke an implicit or explicit promise to the company about what kind of business can be done.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  I see, good point.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

The mining equipment value hasn’t gone to $0. The miners who dismantle their rigs are just going to sell it off to someone in another country.