7 ms·

In comparison to SG-1, I consider TNG to be the "monster of the week" format with stories rarely going beyond an episode or a two-parter. Stargate had tiny arcs

In comparison to SG-1, I consider TNG to be the "monster of the week" format with stories rarely going beyond an episode or a two-parter. Stargate had tiny arcs going for seasons, single episodes having impact on episodes aired in later seasons and had significant amount of tiny details that just "clicked". It wasn't the LOST level of "everything is connected" but it definitely wasn't story of the week beoynd the first season. And in my opinion, both TNG and SG-1 had awful first seasons. I know I should compare SG1 to DS9 or VOY, not TNG, but I prefer TNG over VOY/DS9/ENT so I am comparing my favorite Gate to favorite Trek. > I also really love the comical elements. Back when all other Sci-Fis largely took themselves seriously, SG1 wasn’t afraid to poke fun at itself. If memory serves, the producers have stated on the DVD commentaries that the show was supposed to be even more comical. They had "Wormhole X-Treme"-like (series inside joke) theme recorded for the actual SG-1. Hallowed are the Ori.

flir 5y ago
I don't think any show has handled the progression of tech better. They start out as little more than scavengers, barely understanding what they're using, and end up building their own starships. And the progression makes sense every step of the way. And there's none of Trek's "fix this week's problem, then never mention this incredibly overpowered solution again". Also there's never been an American SciFi show that's been so fundamentally athiest. I'm still amazed they got away with that.
- new_guy 5y ago
  > And there's none of Trek's "fix this week's problem, then never mention this incredibly overpowered solution again". The tech jumped the shark at the start of season 5 with the introduction of Prometheus, but things like the device built in the "Fifth Race" episode, it could open a wormhole to another galaxy, it was used in one more episode "Point of View", then conveniently forgotten about. There's a few examples like that, but overall it was a good show. I wouldn't call it fundamentally atheist either, in fact the entire thing was about religion, especially the last two seasons.
  - walterbell 5y ago
    > in fact the entire thing was about religion So many cosmology storylines about the role of tech as go(o)d proof, including: False gods (Goa'uld) Ascended Beings / Ancients Egyptian history (Ra, Osiris,..) Bio-mechanical-AI Lotan (S4E9, terraformer) Purgatory (semi-ascended, Oma Desala) Immaculate conception (Adria/Ori) Merlin, Grail, Arthurian legends Hallowed are the Ori Transhumanism (symbiotes, Ancient tech) Asgard cloning/transasgardism Asgard time-dilation & time-reversal Multiverses Multiple dimensions
  - flir 5y ago
    Well religion, yes, absolutely, but behind every religion was a false God. (Dead false God). I'd call that implicitly athiest. By those last two seasons they're basically fighting mediaeval Christians. I don't think you can get much more obvious than that. There's only one "religion is good" story off the top of my head (when the Asgard are introduced as protectors of the Viking planet), and in that one the religion is meant to be outgrown (there's a test).
    - hericium 5y ago
      > There's only one "religion is good" story off the top of my head (when the Asgard are introduced as protectors of the Viking planet), and in that one the religion is meant to be outgrown. Great example. It pointed out that religion/mythology is bogus and was put in place so they (Viking folks) can contact the little, grey, Roswell-looking men after they mature out of the religion to see aliens' true form instead of a Viking dude. BTW, Thor was voiced by Michael Shanks, who mainly portrayed Daniel Jackson.
    - mindslight 5y ago
      People like myths. They generally don't like atheism because it's basically just rejecting their favorite myth, without even having one of its own [0]. Thus I believe a non-atheist watching the show is likely to see a bunch of other stories, which while false are actually more in line with their worldview than not. They aren't going to latch onto the general implication of if all these stories about Gods are false, maybe theirs is too. There are already plenty of competing religions, and they rarely induce this effect. [0] I feel bad about saying this, because the rationalist story of emergent creation is quite amazing. But for most people grokking complex details is not enjoyable.
- epage 5y ago
  While I enjoy the show, my problem was with the impracticality of keeping it all a secret that entire time.
  - khuey 5y ago
    The difficulty of keeping it a secret or the failure to do so does drive the plot of several episodes.
    - pantalaimon 5y ago
      But there is this massive power creep that is getting incredibly hard to justifiability hide. In the beginning they are just barely able to figure out how to use the ancient tech, but they eventually advance to being the most powerful civilisation in the known universe with massive space battles over Antarctica - all without any effect on the rest of the earth's population? One would imagine that at some point they would no longer see a point at keeping this all secret and let the general public also benefit from that technology.
      - terafo 5y ago
        They give technology to general public, but in small doses and after rigorous safety tests. There were numerous incidents with "surprises" left in alien technology.
      - laumars 5y ago
        I remember watching it at the time and really enjoying the cover up aspect. Then rewatching it 15 years ago and finding the cover up a little less plausible. Then after rewatching it last year the whole cover up aspect felt dumb. What I put it down to was the following: At the time it was aired, it was intended to be set in our universe. So there was some logic in maintaining the cover up because we obviously weren’t hearing stories about alien battles in the news. It’s only when you rewatch it 20+ years later and see all the 90s tech mixed with futuristic tech that you’re pulled out of the realism that it’s set in our universe. Once you see this as an alternative universe with an alternative earth, you no longer need the cover up to keep the cover up to aid with the viewers suspension of disbelief. It’s a bit like with Dr Who and how present day humans have never heard of the Daleks despite the high number of episodes where they’ve invaded Earth. The moment the victim recognises the Dalek the moment you realise this isn’t set in a reality you occupy and that’s when all the tension disappears (it no longer matters what happens because you don’t care about an alternative Earth you don’t live in).
- rob_c 5y ago
  There were a few overpowered solutions of the week, but typically they were then cleaned up in later episodes. The writing was rather fantastic at that. Aside from the nanites that aged O'Neil feeling more advanced than any other tech the goauld scavenged. But then I suppose the galaxy is littered with stuff like that they had either forgotten or lost themselves...
- randallsquared 5y ago
  > Also there's never been an American SciFi show that's been so fundamentally athiest. Well, there's Teal'c approval of the biblical God, but I guess he's not engaging with the reality of the Bible, either way: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0709069/characters/nm0431895 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0709069/characters/nm0431895
- jerf 5y ago
  SG-1 isn't atheist. It's Gnostic. Gnosticism is one of the earliest Christian heresies (directly addressed in the New Testament, which was written in just the few decades after Christ, so very early) that was built on the idea that matter is bad, we're imprisoned in it by the false God (the God of the Bible in real Gnosticism), and that by the possession of the secret knowledge of gnosticism, you can transcend your earthly existence to become pure spirit, which is good. Anything keeping you from that is evil. Gnosticism also perfectly well fits with the material world being quite evil, and all the "false gods" running around fits in with that. The Gnostically-transcendant "Ascended" beings also decided to not interfere with the material world, except for a couple of rebels. Those rebels were also portrayed as basically being wrong; both rebels in SG-1 also made enormous mistakes and the universe would have been better off if they also stayed hands off, and the Ascended were correct they shouldn't have done anything. (I would consider Atlantis more ambiguous on this point.) When I say it "is" Gnostic, I don't mean that they were pushing Gnosticism per se. I just mean, that's the fundamental setup of the universe. The Highest Reality shown is Ascension. It would be a rational conclusion in that universe (though not the only rational conclusion, but a rational conclusion) to conclude that the only goal worth pursuing is Ascension. (In fact it was a bit jarring to me in some ways that the characters did not address that more fully at times.) The show's Gnosticism doesn't seem to have included the particular idea that we were imprisoned in the material world on purpose, but it has pretty much everything else about it. So bear in mind I mean this descriptively, not proscriptively; goodness knows I'm not advocating for this myself. I'm just saying that just as the Lord of the Rings is established on certain ultimate principles spelled out in the first section of the Silmarillion, the SG-1 universe is at its core, very Gnostic. I don't mean this as a good or a bad thing, just a descriptive one. In fact a Gnostic would consider responding to the universe with atheism as a reasonable one to some extent, because the material world has nothing worthy of worship in it. They would just claim that there is still something better, to transcend the material world into pure spirit, but if you didn't know about that, atheism would be the next reasonable response. (The ideas of Gnosticism can be further traced back in the mythologies of the area, like Greek and Roman. If you get early enough versions of the myths and read them with the mindset of the time, or read the philosophers of time, most of them also had some variant of the belief that life involved eventually moving into the pure spirit world, sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad. Given the nature of the show and its relationship with mythology you could come at it that way as well. But it ultimately still strikes me as fairly Gnostic, rather than the older mythological interpretations. YMMV; if you know enough about this sort of thing to have opinions you are welcome to them by me.)
rob_c 5y ago
Ugh SG1 had 8 great series imo. It wasn't the actors in the Ori arc I didn't like it was the fact Ori arc felt like it lacked some nuance.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  IMO the problem with the Ori is none of them were charismatic. Even Adria, the most "human" of the group, was a bore. The Goa'uld on the other hand were flamboyant and arrogant and even charismatic. You wouldn't root for them -- most of the time -- but they were damn fun to watch (and to see defeated).
  - delecti 5y ago
    Another point in the Goa'uld's column is the gradual build of them as threats. At the beginning of the early seasons, Earth was only barely on their radar, and the characters tried to keep a low profile, but things escalated and they developed allies. At the beginning of season 9 the Ori show up and are comparatively static threats for the next 2 seasons and a movie.
  - monkeybutton 5y ago
    >The Goa'uld on the other hand were flamboyant and arrogant They were great villains because they had distinct personalities and were rivals with each other. Ba'al and his clones were especially fun to watch.
    - laumars 5y ago
      Yeah, the hierarchy of the system lords created an interesting political depth to the show but without falling back on the Star Trek cliche of long boardroom meetings and negotiations (which I do personally enjoy as well but that’s more of an acquired taste).

flir 5y ago

I don't think any show has handled the progression of tech better. They start out as little more than scavengers, barely understanding what they're using, and end up building their own starships. And the progression makes sense every step of the way. And there's none of Trek's "fix this week's problem, then never mention this incredibly overpowered solution again". Also there's never been an American SciFi show that's been so fundamentally athiest. I'm still amazed they got away with that.

new_guy 5y ago
> And there's none of Trek's "fix this week's problem, then never mention this incredibly overpowered solution again". The tech jumped the shark at the start of season 5 with the introduction of Prometheus, but things like the device built in the "Fifth Race" episode, it could open a wormhole to another galaxy, it was used in one more episode "Point of View", then conveniently forgotten about. There's a few examples like that, but overall it was a good show. I wouldn't call it fundamentally atheist either, in fact the entire thing was about religion, especially the last two seasons.
- walterbell 5y ago
  > in fact the entire thing was about religion So many cosmology storylines about the role of tech as go(o)d proof, including: False gods (Goa'uld) Ascended Beings / Ancients Egyptian history (Ra, Osiris,..) Bio-mechanical-AI Lotan (S4E9, terraformer) Purgatory (semi-ascended, Oma Desala) Immaculate conception (Adria/Ori) Merlin, Grail, Arthurian legends Hallowed are the Ori Transhumanism (symbiotes, Ancient tech) Asgard cloning/transasgardism Asgard time-dilation & time-reversal Multiverses Multiple dimensions
- flir 5y ago
  Well religion, yes, absolutely, but behind every religion was a false God. (Dead false God). I'd call that implicitly athiest. By those last two seasons they're basically fighting mediaeval Christians. I don't think you can get much more obvious than that. There's only one "religion is good" story off the top of my head (when the Asgard are introduced as protectors of the Viking planet), and in that one the religion is meant to be outgrown (there's a test).
  - hericium 5y ago
    > There's only one "religion is good" story off the top of my head (when the Asgard are introduced as protectors of the Viking planet), and in that one the religion is meant to be outgrown. Great example. It pointed out that religion/mythology is bogus and was put in place so they (Viking folks) can contact the little, grey, Roswell-looking men after they mature out of the religion to see aliens' true form instead of a Viking dude. BTW, Thor was voiced by Michael Shanks, who mainly portrayed Daniel Jackson.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    People like myths. They generally don't like atheism because it's basically just rejecting their favorite myth, without even having one of its own [0]. Thus I believe a non-atheist watching the show is likely to see a bunch of other stories, which while false are actually more in line with their worldview than not. They aren't going to latch onto the general implication of if all these stories about Gods are false, maybe theirs is too. There are already plenty of competing religions, and they rarely induce this effect. [0] I feel bad about saying this, because the rationalist story of emergent creation is quite amazing. But for most people grokking complex details is not enjoyable.
epage 5y ago
While I enjoy the show, my problem was with the impracticality of keeping it all a secret that entire time.
- khuey 5y ago
  The difficulty of keeping it a secret or the failure to do so does drive the plot of several episodes.
  - pantalaimon 5y ago
    But there is this massive power creep that is getting incredibly hard to justifiability hide. In the beginning they are just barely able to figure out how to use the ancient tech, but they eventually advance to being the most powerful civilisation in the known universe with massive space battles over Antarctica - all without any effect on the rest of the earth's population? One would imagine that at some point they would no longer see a point at keeping this all secret and let the general public also benefit from that technology.
    - terafo 5y ago
      They give technology to general public, but in small doses and after rigorous safety tests. There were numerous incidents with "surprises" left in alien technology.
    - laumars 5y ago
      I remember watching it at the time and really enjoying the cover up aspect. Then rewatching it 15 years ago and finding the cover up a little less plausible. Then after rewatching it last year the whole cover up aspect felt dumb. What I put it down to was the following: At the time it was aired, it was intended to be set in our universe. So there was some logic in maintaining the cover up because we obviously weren’t hearing stories about alien battles in the news. It’s only when you rewatch it 20+ years later and see all the 90s tech mixed with futuristic tech that you’re pulled out of the realism that it’s set in our universe. Once you see this as an alternative universe with an alternative earth, you no longer need the cover up to keep the cover up to aid with the viewers suspension of disbelief. It’s a bit like with Dr Who and how present day humans have never heard of the Daleks despite the high number of episodes where they’ve invaded Earth. The moment the victim recognises the Dalek the moment you realise this isn’t set in a reality you occupy and that’s when all the tension disappears (it no longer matters what happens because you don’t care about an alternative Earth you don’t live in).
rob_c 5y ago
There were a few overpowered solutions of the week, but typically they were then cleaned up in later episodes. The writing was rather fantastic at that. Aside from the nanites that aged O'Neil feeling more advanced than any other tech the goauld scavenged. But then I suppose the galaxy is littered with stuff like that they had either forgotten or lost themselves...
randallsquared 5y ago
> Also there's never been an American SciFi show that's been so fundamentally athiest. Well, there's Teal'c approval of the biblical God, but I guess he's not engaging with the reality of the Bible, either way: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0709069/characters/nm0431895 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0709069/characters/nm0431895
jerf 5y ago
SG-1 isn't atheist. It's Gnostic. Gnosticism is one of the earliest Christian heresies (directly addressed in the New Testament, which was written in just the few decades after Christ, so very early) that was built on the idea that matter is bad, we're imprisoned in it by the false God (the God of the Bible in real Gnosticism), and that by the possession of the secret knowledge of gnosticism, you can transcend your earthly existence to become pure spirit, which is good. Anything keeping you from that is evil. Gnosticism also perfectly well fits with the material world being quite evil, and all the "false gods" running around fits in with that. The Gnostically-transcendant "Ascended" beings also decided to not interfere with the material world, except for a couple of rebels. Those rebels were also portrayed as basically being wrong; both rebels in SG-1 also made enormous mistakes and the universe would have been better off if they also stayed hands off, and the Ascended were correct they shouldn't have done anything. (I would consider Atlantis more ambiguous on this point.) When I say it "is" Gnostic, I don't mean that they were pushing Gnosticism per se. I just mean, that's the fundamental setup of the universe. The Highest Reality shown is Ascension. It would be a rational conclusion in that universe (though not the only rational conclusion, but a rational conclusion) to conclude that the only goal worth pursuing is Ascension. (In fact it was a bit jarring to me in some ways that the characters did not address that more fully at times.) The show's Gnosticism doesn't seem to have included the particular idea that we were imprisoned in the material world on purpose, but it has pretty much everything else about it. So bear in mind I mean this descriptively, not proscriptively; goodness knows I'm not advocating for this myself. I'm just saying that just as the Lord of the Rings is established on certain ultimate principles spelled out in the first section of the Silmarillion, the SG-1 universe is at its core, very Gnostic. I don't mean this as a good or a bad thing, just a descriptive one. In fact a Gnostic would consider responding to the universe with atheism as a reasonable one to some extent, because the material world has nothing worthy of worship in it. They would just claim that there is still something better, to transcend the material world into pure spirit, but if you didn't know about that, atheism would be the next reasonable response. (The ideas of Gnosticism can be further traced back in the mythologies of the area, like Greek and Roman. If you get early enough versions of the myths and read them with the mindset of the time, or read the philosophers of time, most of them also had some variant of the belief that life involved eventually moving into the pure spirit world, sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad. Given the nature of the show and its relationship with mythology you could come at it that way as well. But it ultimately still strikes me as fairly Gnostic, rather than the older mythological interpretations. YMMV; if you know enough about this sort of thing to have opinions you are welcome to them by me.)

rob_c 5y ago

Ugh SG1 had 8 great series imo. It wasn't the actors in the Ori arc I didn't like it was the fact Ori arc felt like it lacked some nuance.

notreallyserio 5y ago
IMO the problem with the Ori is none of them were charismatic. Even Adria, the most "human" of the group, was a bore. The Goa'uld on the other hand were flamboyant and arrogant and even charismatic. You wouldn't root for them -- most of the time -- but they were damn fun to watch (and to see defeated).
- delecti 5y ago
  Another point in the Goa'uld's column is the gradual build of them as threats. At the beginning of the early seasons, Earth was only barely on their radar, and the characters tried to keep a low profile, but things escalated and they developed allies. At the beginning of season 9 the Ori show up and are comparatively static threats for the next 2 seasons and a movie.
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  >The Goa'uld on the other hand were flamboyant and arrogant They were great villains because they had distinct personalities and were rivals with each other. Ba'al and his clones were especially fun to watch.
  - laumars 5y ago
    Yeah, the hierarchy of the system lords created an interesting political depth to the show but without falling back on the Star Trek cliche of long boardroom meetings and negotiations (which I do personally enjoy as well but that’s more of an acquired taste).