5 ms·

What a great deep dive into a fascinating subject I have never seen the actual math on. > This section of road is approximately 584 feet long and is going to c

What a great deep dive into a fascinating subject I have never seen the actual math on. > This section of road is approximately 584 feet long and is going to cost around $350,000 This is the cornerstone of the article he uses for all other calculations. Is this number reasonable? It seems ridiculously expensive but maybe that is just how things are.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
This article claims costs of $2-3m for a mile of two-lane road in a rural area. 584 feet is a bit over a tenth of a mile, so that cost would make sense for building a new road. Not sure whether the cost to major repairs or replacements would be higher or lower. Also gotta factor in that this article is from 2016 and right now costs for building anything seem substantially up. https://blog.midwestind.com/cost-of-building-road/ https://blog.midwestind.com/cost-of-building-road/
- silvestrov 5y ago
  And the road is in a really bad shape, ee Google StreetView: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9373005,-90.3943558,3a,75y,339.89h,62.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1somcIVp4KYloQTEoJlwVGtg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9373005,-90.3943558,3a,75y,3...
cbsmith 5y ago
Yeah. Fundamentally, roads are really costly. The whole notion of designing a city around cars is horribly expensive and we keep pretending that's not the case.
- rmetzler 5y ago
  I don't know much about American taxes (not even much about German taxes) but I think roads should be funded through some tax which is connected to cars or fuel.
  - mschild 5y ago
    In Germany you have the KFZ Steuer which brings in about €9.4b every year. You pay KFZ when you have a car. [0] https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Downloads/Broschueren_Bestellservice/2018-03-29-zoll-kraftfahrzeugsteuer.html https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Downloads/...
    - sva_ 5y ago
      In Germany, landlords have to pay a percentage of the cost of roads built around it. In some cases this might be a huge percentage, depending on how much the road is used by the public.
      - Xylakant 5y ago
        Only once, when the road is built, ongoing maintenance is paid from general taxes.
        DocTomoe 5y ago
        Actually, no, when the road is being overhauled, the town can come back with you with another invoice. See "Straßenbaubeiträge" [1]. Sometimes, these are prohibitively expensive, forcing homeowners to abandon their property, often amounting to several 10k Euros [2]. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra%C3%9Fenbaubeitrag https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra%C3%9Fenbaubeitrag [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdigJ6dOL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdigJ6dOL8
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      That’s a tax that goes to the federal government only. It pays for federal roads (Autobahn and Bundesstraße) and badly at that - the latest numbers I could find are for 2018 and there, expenses were above 10 billion euros. (1) State roads and roads in cities are paid from the states and the cities budget, the KFZ-Steuer does nothing to offset those - it’s all financed from other taxes and fees. (1) https://www.deutschlandinzahlen.de/tab/deutschland/infrastruktur/verkehr-und-transport/ausgaben-fuer-den-verkehr https://www.deutschlandinzahlen.de/tab/deutschland/infrastru...
pyb 5y ago
I wonder if this is due to the cost of materials, or the cost of local labour.
bell-cot 5y ago
Others have said that the $350,000 is reasonable - but let me point out that there can be a wide range of "2-line roads", even in a small area (so same cost of labor, gravel, concrete or asphalt, etc.). Some rural "2-lane roads" are two barely-wide-enough lanes for vehicles, with no shoulders, no curbs, and drainage ditches (so no buried storm sewers or anything). Curves can be sharp, grades steep, and blind summits frequent. Bridges may be 1 lane wide, or have weight limits. Vs. "2-lane road" in even a modest little city often implies pavement wide enough to park on one or both sides of the 2 traffic lanes, and a load of other expensive upgrades. I'd not be a bit surprised if the cost per mile of that was 2x to 5x the cost of a bare-minimum rural 2-lane (paved) road.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

This article claims costs of $2-3m for a mile of two-lane road in a rural area. 584 feet is a bit over a tenth of a mile, so that cost would make sense for building a new road. Not sure whether the cost to major repairs or replacements would be higher or lower. Also gotta factor in that this article is from 2016 and right now costs for building anything seem substantially up. https://blog.midwestind.com/cost-of-building-road/ https://blog.midwestind.com/cost-of-building-road/

silvestrov 5y ago
And the road is in a really bad shape, ee Google StreetView: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9373005,-90.3943558,3a,75y,339.89h,62.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1somcIVp4KYloQTEoJlwVGtg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9373005,-90.3943558,3a,75y,3...

cbsmith 5y ago

Yeah. Fundamentally, roads are really costly. The whole notion of designing a city around cars is horribly expensive and we keep pretending that's not the case.

rmetzler 5y ago
I don't know much about American taxes (not even much about German taxes) but I think roads should be funded through some tax which is connected to cars or fuel.
- mschild 5y ago
  In Germany you have the KFZ Steuer which brings in about €9.4b every year. You pay KFZ when you have a car. [0] https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Downloads/Broschueren_Bestellservice/2018-03-29-zoll-kraftfahrzeugsteuer.html https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Downloads/...
  - sva_ 5y ago
    In Germany, landlords have to pay a percentage of the cost of roads built around it. In some cases this might be a huge percentage, depending on how much the road is used by the public.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      Only once, when the road is built, ongoing maintenance is paid from general taxes.
      - DocTomoe 5y ago
        Actually, no, when the road is being overhauled, the town can come back with you with another invoice. See "Straßenbaubeiträge" [1]. Sometimes, these are prohibitively expensive, forcing homeowners to abandon their property, often amounting to several 10k Euros [2]. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra%C3%9Fenbaubeitrag https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra%C3%9Fenbaubeitrag [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdigJ6dOL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdigJ6dOL8
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    That’s a tax that goes to the federal government only. It pays for federal roads (Autobahn and Bundesstraße) and badly at that - the latest numbers I could find are for 2018 and there, expenses were above 10 billion euros. (1) State roads and roads in cities are paid from the states and the cities budget, the KFZ-Steuer does nothing to offset those - it’s all financed from other taxes and fees. (1) https://www.deutschlandinzahlen.de/tab/deutschland/infrastruktur/verkehr-und-transport/ausgaben-fuer-den-verkehr https://www.deutschlandinzahlen.de/tab/deutschland/infrastru...

pyb 5y ago

I wonder if this is due to the cost of materials, or the cost of local labour.

bell-cot 5y ago

Others have said that the $350,000 is reasonable - but let me point out that there can be a wide range of "2-line roads", even in a small area (so same cost of labor, gravel, concrete or asphalt, etc.). Some rural "2-lane roads" are two barely-wide-enough lanes for vehicles, with no shoulders, no curbs, and drainage ditches (so no buried storm sewers or anything). Curves can be sharp, grades steep, and blind summits frequent. Bridges may be 1 lane wide, or have weight limits. Vs. "2-lane road" in even a modest little city often implies pavement wide enough to park on one or both sides of the 2 traffic lanes, and a load of other expensive upgrades. I'd not be a bit surprised if the cost per mile of that was 2x to 5x the cost of a bare-minimum rural 2-lane (paved) road.