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I definitely used to think that way. It's the type of thing that is a lot of fun to be a part of, until it isn't anymore. It's a thrilling way to self identify,

I definitely used to think that way. It's the type of thing that is a lot of fun to be a part of, until it isn't anymore. It's a thrilling way to self identify, until it becomes your entire identity. I hope they all end up ok.

nefitty 5y ago
I was sort of forced out of that identity by COVID lockdown and domestic imperatives. I used to be proud of how many cans I could pound in a session before I got kicked out of a bar. Now, if I or anyone else do that, it's a huge pain in the ass. I still don't trust people that have never been drunks, though. There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos. The problem definitely is when people mistake being a drunk dickhead with being punk.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  > There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos. Funny. I've run into many more social norms that promote drinking while socializing, especially at universities and in tech.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    That makes sense! I never went to college and have never really been in "tech". Of my several dozen close friends, only one went to college and he definitely became markedly different than us as his studies went on.
- rainonmoon 5y ago
  Drinking is so normative that not drinking became the punk ethos via the hardcore scene, straight edge etc. Two of the most punk guys alive (Ian MacKaye and Henry Rollins) have been sober longer than some people in this thread have been alive. Getting blackout has more in common with hair metal so if your hero is Nikki Sixx, more power to you.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    Haha I get that. I love MacKaye and Rollins. As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort. I chalked it up to kids trying to exude a rebellious attitude within the safe confines of the Christian narrative. That didn't seem as authentic to me as the kids who started anarchist punk or satanic grind bands. Basically, there were some behaviors that served as the narc test. Straight edge kids had a self-declared pass because of their morals. "I don't drink, see? I have an x tattooed on my hand." Those morals conspicuously seemed to align with what "good Christian kids" were taught to believe. This was outlined in stark relief as I realized more and more bands around me labeled themselves as "Christian". I hadn't revisited that conclusion in a long time, but a cursory glance signals to me that the logic is still sound. It seems like it was my own allergic reaction to cynicism, which I think MacKaye et al might at least respect.
    - dagw 5y ago
      As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort. While both "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" would not drink I never found them to have much overlap or common ground beyond that. When I was growing up people who self-identified as "straight edge" where far more likely to involved in the far left, anarchist and/or anti fascist scene. I never knew someone who didn't drink for purely religious reasons to describe themselves as "straight edge".
  - SyzygistSix 5y ago
    I found the straight-edge scene intellectually lightweight and often insufferable. Substance abuse is common among artists for a reason; many are psychonauts. Merely being a drinker does not a psychonaut make, but then again, Hemmingway wasn't just another drunk. Producing art is akin to shamanism.
    - biztos 5y ago
      Hemingway (claimed he) never wrote a word while drunk. In fact he was highly critical of contemporaries who drank and wrote. Hemingway wrote, and Hemingway drank, but in that order on any given day. [edit: I agree with your point, I just wanted to clarify re: Hemingway specifically]
joejerryronnie 5y ago
Reminds me of my first year in college. A big group of us all thrown into a wild party town, on our own for the first time, learning about ourselves and each other. Only it wasn’t centered around alcohol, it was centered around crystal meth. Of course alcohol, weed, and various hallucinogens were always present but the big thing tying us together was the meth. Everything was great, if a bit intense, for the first few months. It felt like it was us against the world and we were invincible. Slowly but surely, though, cracks began to emerge. One of us would hit a rough patch, drop out, and move home (sometimes after totaling a vehicle). Others started getting into petty crime and became convinced the FBI was after us - it didn’t help that one girl’s Father actually was a fed who became increasingly concerned about his daughter’s erratic behavior. I think all of us started seeing shadow people and realized the downward spiral we were in. Things kind of ended after that first year when most of the group couldn’t handle the lifestyle and school simultaneously. The few of us who didn’t drop out went on to varying degrees of success from solid middle and upper middle class lives to one guy who started a company and is now worth a couple hundred million. It was a crazy time with some pretty wild memories that I wouldn’t take back - but certainly wouldn’t recommend.
LaundroMat 5y ago
This is what made Pete Hamill stop drinking. After decades of hard drinking, he realized he had always been putting on an act. In fact, he inadvertently started to step out of himself to watch himself not be himself. That realization bothered him so much, he just quit. I've given away the ending, but his book ("This Drinking Life") is well worth reading. (As a biography, not as a guide to help anyone quit drinking).

nefitty 5y ago

I was sort of forced out of that identity by COVID lockdown and domestic imperatives. I used to be proud of how many cans I could pound in a session before I got kicked out of a bar. Now, if I or anyone else do that, it's a huge pain in the ass. I still don't trust people that have never been drunks, though. There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos. The problem definitely is when people mistake being a drunk dickhead with being punk.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
> There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos. Funny. I've run into many more social norms that promote drinking while socializing, especially at universities and in tech.
- nefitty 5y ago
  That makes sense! I never went to college and have never really been in "tech". Of my several dozen close friends, only one went to college and he definitely became markedly different than us as his studies went on.
rainonmoon 5y ago
Drinking is so normative that not drinking became the punk ethos via the hardcore scene, straight edge etc. Two of the most punk guys alive (Ian MacKaye and Henry Rollins) have been sober longer than some people in this thread have been alive. Getting blackout has more in common with hair metal so if your hero is Nikki Sixx, more power to you.
- nefitty 5y ago
  Haha I get that. I love MacKaye and Rollins. As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort. I chalked it up to kids trying to exude a rebellious attitude within the safe confines of the Christian narrative. That didn't seem as authentic to me as the kids who started anarchist punk or satanic grind bands. Basically, there were some behaviors that served as the narc test. Straight edge kids had a self-declared pass because of their morals. "I don't drink, see? I have an x tattooed on my hand." Those morals conspicuously seemed to align with what "good Christian kids" were taught to believe. This was outlined in stark relief as I realized more and more bands around me labeled themselves as "Christian". I hadn't revisited that conclusion in a long time, but a cursory glance signals to me that the logic is still sound. It seems like it was my own allergic reaction to cynicism, which I think MacKaye et al might at least respect.
  - dagw 5y ago
    As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort. While both "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" would not drink I never found them to have much overlap or common ground beyond that. When I was growing up people who self-identified as "straight edge" where far more likely to involved in the far left, anarchist and/or anti fascist scene. I never knew someone who didn't drink for purely religious reasons to describe themselves as "straight edge".
- SyzygistSix 5y ago
  I found the straight-edge scene intellectually lightweight and often insufferable. Substance abuse is common among artists for a reason; many are psychonauts. Merely being a drinker does not a psychonaut make, but then again, Hemmingway wasn't just another drunk. Producing art is akin to shamanism.
  - biztos 5y ago
    Hemingway (claimed he) never wrote a word while drunk. In fact he was highly critical of contemporaries who drank and wrote. Hemingway wrote, and Hemingway drank, but in that order on any given day. [edit: I agree with your point, I just wanted to clarify re: Hemingway specifically]

joejerryronnie 5y ago

Reminds me of my first year in college. A big group of us all thrown into a wild party town, on our own for the first time, learning about ourselves and each other. Only it wasn’t centered around alcohol, it was centered around crystal meth. Of course alcohol, weed, and various hallucinogens were always present but the big thing tying us together was the meth. Everything was great, if a bit intense, for the first few months. It felt like it was us against the world and we were invincible. Slowly but surely, though, cracks began to emerge. One of us would hit a rough patch, drop out, and move home (sometimes after totaling a vehicle). Others started getting into petty crime and became convinced the FBI was after us - it didn’t help that one girl’s Father actually was a fed who became increasingly concerned about his daughter’s erratic behavior. I think all of us started seeing shadow people and realized the downward spiral we were in. Things kind of ended after that first year when most of the group couldn’t handle the lifestyle and school simultaneously. The few of us who didn’t drop out went on to varying degrees of success from solid middle and upper middle class lives to one guy who started a company and is now worth a couple hundred million. It was a crazy time with some pretty wild memories that I wouldn’t take back - but certainly wouldn’t recommend.

LaundroMat 5y ago

This is what made Pete Hamill stop drinking. After decades of hard drinking, he realized he had always been putting on an act. In fact, he inadvertently started to step out of himself to watch himself not be himself. That realization bothered him so much, he just quit. I've given away the ending, but his book ("This Drinking Life") is well worth reading. (As a biography, not as a guide to help anyone quit drinking).