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Realistically it's a joint responsibility between the system and the individual. Culture and historical context have a huge role in how people behave, which is

Realistically it's a joint responsibility between the system and the individual. Culture and historical context have a huge role in how people behave, which is why one country can consist of mostly skinny healthy people and another unhealthy overweight people. It's not because the latter country's people are genetically predisposed to be irresponsible adults. You can't fully blame the system or the individual. It's both. Why must everything be a binary war nowadays?

serf 5y ago
>You can't fully blame the system or the individual. It's both. Why must everything be a binary war nowadays? in societies with limited 'systems', obesity is a non-issue; so if that's the case then it stands to reason that it's the responsibility of the individual to try to disregard the temptations that the 'system' they're a member of places in front of them, no? This is further reinforced by the fact that heavily-obese countries are not anywhere near 100% obese; individuals in those societies acted with their own sovereignty to avoid whatever physiological issues. So, in other words, I blame both the individual and the system for the journey towards obesity, but feel that it remains staunchly in the individual hands of the person to avoid whatever pitfalls their individual systems put in front of them.
- kiba 5y ago
  I mostly viewed obesity as an insidious health problem that cannot easily be resolved, and yet individual agency can somehow overcome the problem, as I nearly did two months ago.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  In a society which spends around $750 billion annually on formal advertising, and a related amount on "influencing", client journalism, covert PR, and so on, individuals are primarily motivated by sovereign independent choices? Does this really sound even remotely plausible? That's ignoring the very obvious practical issues that make poorer people more prone to obesity - extreme time poverty, exhaustion and stress, limited affordability of healthy food choices, limited physical access to healthy choices, time and money costs of exercise options, and so on.
  - lancesells 5y ago
    Advertising is filled with psychological tricks and should be much more regulated than it currently is. I definitely blame the system for a lot of things but an individual does have some responsibility and agency as to how they live.
andrewclunn 5y ago
So how is advocating for a system that removes all social pressures towards healthy lifestyles a fix or even improvement? You assume people are incapable of nuanced discussion, yet you appeal to a vague "it's complicated" approach that merely avoids the issues.
- colordrops 5y ago
  You are falling for the same binary thinking I'm criticizing. I never said anything about removing social pressures towards healthy lifestyles. I'm not supporting the woke "fat acceptance" stance. I can't stand acceptance of being fat actually and am all for fat shaming. It's a horrible drag on our health system and society. I'm advocating for BOTH systemic and personal responsibility. Why is that such a crazy stance? You don't think that corn syrup subsidies and the diabetes industry play a role in US obesity? Please explain why people from Japan and HK are skinny and healthy and those from Texas are less so, on average.
  - 8note 5y ago
    What makes you think fat shaming is effective for reducing the number of fat people? Within the regime of shaming, obesity has increased a whole ton.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      You are right, it's probably not that effective. I should have framed my statement as I am not against fat shaming, rather than being "for" it. Also, "shame" is a catch-all here for being direct in criticism. I don't support bullying and insults. I certainly don't think acceptance of an unhealthy lifestyle is OK either.
    - antifa 5y ago
      Fat shaming is basically virtue signaling, there's no evidence that it's helped anyone, there's plenty of evidence it bullies people into stress eating and suicide.
thelettere 5y ago
You're right but at the same time all the evidence points towards the benefit of one's own disposition being biased towards responsibility and choice. External locus of control and learned helplessness are not fun states of mind, and an emphasis on external factors tends to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Particularly of course when this focus gets "in the air" and becomes an integral part of the culture. Which, in turn, becomes another oppressive systemic factor differentiating countries. Plus "average" rates of health and illness conceal considerable heterogeneity - even among those in the same environment, so it's rarely all that illuminating in practice. External factors are important, but more important still is knowledge that the individual almost always has some power to alter their circumstances, or to leave to find a different and better one. And even if this were mostly false, believing otherwise helps make it true.
- colordrops 5y ago
  You're missing the fact that an individual's disposition and choice isn't entirely a creation of their own. Otherwise you'd see a random distribution of dispositions, rather than very different dispositions based on cultural context. The rest of your statements are vague and hand-wavy, and I'm not sure how to respond.
  - zo1 5y ago
    Not OP. Of course the two systems interact and feed eachother. The parent said the same thing, adding that linking the two too much causes a feedback loop only because we let it. I.e. letting the "victim to the system" become part of the culture, ingraining it and adding even more effect of the system over individual action. We are forever intertwined with our environment. The only way to untangle it is to pick one guiding principle. I choose personal responsibility as it's the only way to stop perpetuating victimhood and suffering across generations.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      It is totally fine that an individual choose personal responsibility. The issue here is when individual choices of others are blamed as the sole cause of the problem. > The only way to untangle it is to pick one guiding principle. This is an arbitrary statement with no reasoning. It is both possible to expect individual responsibility and also to hold the system accountable. The system and individual behaviors are intertwined. That's the nature of human reality. They are a feedback loop that affect and create each other. One does not exist without the other. It's like voting - you can vote all you want, but some changes will never happen without modifying the system, e.g. the first-past-the-post voting in the US killing any chance of 3rd party participation. You have to change the system to ranked-choice. There's no way around it.

serf 5y ago

>You can't fully blame the system or the individual. It's both. Why must everything be a binary war nowadays? in societies with limited 'systems', obesity is a non-issue; so if that's the case then it stands to reason that it's the responsibility of the individual to try to disregard the temptations that the 'system' they're a member of places in front of them, no? This is further reinforced by the fact that heavily-obese countries are not anywhere near 100% obese; individuals in those societies acted with their own sovereignty to avoid whatever physiological issues. So, in other words, I blame both the individual and the system for the journey towards obesity, but feel that it remains staunchly in the individual hands of the person to avoid whatever pitfalls their individual systems put in front of them.

kiba 5y ago
I mostly viewed obesity as an insidious health problem that cannot easily be resolved, and yet individual agency can somehow overcome the problem, as I nearly did two months ago.
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
In a society which spends around $750 billion annually on formal advertising, and a related amount on "influencing", client journalism, covert PR, and so on, individuals are primarily motivated by sovereign independent choices? Does this really sound even remotely plausible? That's ignoring the very obvious practical issues that make poorer people more prone to obesity - extreme time poverty, exhaustion and stress, limited affordability of healthy food choices, limited physical access to healthy choices, time and money costs of exercise options, and so on.
- lancesells 5y ago
  Advertising is filled with psychological tricks and should be much more regulated than it currently is. I definitely blame the system for a lot of things but an individual does have some responsibility and agency as to how they live.

andrewclunn 5y ago

So how is advocating for a system that removes all social pressures towards healthy lifestyles a fix or even improvement? You assume people are incapable of nuanced discussion, yet you appeal to a vague "it's complicated" approach that merely avoids the issues.

colordrops 5y ago
You are falling for the same binary thinking I'm criticizing. I never said anything about removing social pressures towards healthy lifestyles. I'm not supporting the woke "fat acceptance" stance. I can't stand acceptance of being fat actually and am all for fat shaming. It's a horrible drag on our health system and society. I'm advocating for BOTH systemic and personal responsibility. Why is that such a crazy stance? You don't think that corn syrup subsidies and the diabetes industry play a role in US obesity? Please explain why people from Japan and HK are skinny and healthy and those from Texas are less so, on average.
- 8note 5y ago
  What makes you think fat shaming is effective for reducing the number of fat people? Within the regime of shaming, obesity has increased a whole ton.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    You are right, it's probably not that effective. I should have framed my statement as I am not against fat shaming, rather than being "for" it. Also, "shame" is a catch-all here for being direct in criticism. I don't support bullying and insults. I certainly don't think acceptance of an unhealthy lifestyle is OK either.
  - antifa 5y ago
    Fat shaming is basically virtue signaling, there's no evidence that it's helped anyone, there's plenty of evidence it bullies people into stress eating and suicide.

thelettere 5y ago

You're right but at the same time all the evidence points towards the benefit of one's own disposition being biased towards responsibility and choice. External locus of control and learned helplessness are not fun states of mind, and an emphasis on external factors tends to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Particularly of course when this focus gets "in the air" and becomes an integral part of the culture. Which, in turn, becomes another oppressive systemic factor differentiating countries. Plus "average" rates of health and illness conceal considerable heterogeneity - even among those in the same environment, so it's rarely all that illuminating in practice. External factors are important, but more important still is knowledge that the individual almost always has some power to alter their circumstances, or to leave to find a different and better one. And even if this were mostly false, believing otherwise helps make it true.

colordrops 5y ago
You're missing the fact that an individual's disposition and choice isn't entirely a creation of their own. Otherwise you'd see a random distribution of dispositions, rather than very different dispositions based on cultural context. The rest of your statements are vague and hand-wavy, and I'm not sure how to respond.
- zo1 5y ago
  Not OP. Of course the two systems interact and feed eachother. The parent said the same thing, adding that linking the two too much causes a feedback loop only because we let it. I.e. letting the "victim to the system" become part of the culture, ingraining it and adding even more effect of the system over individual action. We are forever intertwined with our environment. The only way to untangle it is to pick one guiding principle. I choose personal responsibility as it's the only way to stop perpetuating victimhood and suffering across generations.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    It is totally fine that an individual choose personal responsibility. The issue here is when individual choices of others are blamed as the sole cause of the problem. > The only way to untangle it is to pick one guiding principle. This is an arbitrary statement with no reasoning. It is both possible to expect individual responsibility and also to hold the system accountable. The system and individual behaviors are intertwined. That's the nature of human reality. They are a feedback loop that affect and create each other. One does not exist without the other. It's like voting - you can vote all you want, but some changes will never happen without modifying the system, e.g. the first-past-the-post voting in the US killing any chance of 3rd party participation. You have to change the system to ranked-choice. There's no way around it.