5 ms·

As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance.

by Andys 5y ago

As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. The throwaway effect can an does happen to any ICE vehicle easily, when the engine is not economic to repair. We should have laws covering all types and brands of vehicles to make them more repairable, but ultimately this should be easier with electric (recycling batteries in bulk is cheaper than mining more lithium)

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
An ICE vehicle can last 15+ years. Even more in a benign environment. Tesla doesn't make anything that will last that long.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  That's why the auto industry is anticipating that leasing will eventually be the standard model. Nobody is going to want to pay half a new car's price just to have a new battery installed.
DenseComet 5y ago
Isn't that a function of being an EV rather than an ICE? I'd expect an EV from any of the traditional automakers to also require comparatively little maintenance.
Syonyk 5y ago
> As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. It was a reference to an old post of mine (https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwaway-cars/ https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwawa...) - and, I actually agree with you that they do have million-mile grade drivetrains. It's just that the rest of the car is poor quality. That's fine if it's cheap and easy to fix, but it's not. You can't get the parts, you can't install the parts if you can get them because they have to be paired with the car, and, in general, they're like a lot of modern ICEs that fall apart around a running drivetrain. Except worse, because they're luxury cars and you can't even do the repair work yourself.
- vel0city 5y ago
  It's interesting reading your blog post, as there's essentially a lot of projection as to what life would be like for Tesla drivers post-warranty. It's now over four years since you wrote that post, it would be neat to see how it's turned out.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    Unfortunately, I no longer work with enough Tesla owners to have a reasonable sample, and I've lost my tolerance for the Tesla corners of the internet years ago. Someone should talk to owners and do that, but it's hard to get straight out of Tesla owners since so many are personally invested in Tesla succeeding. "Yeah, it's been 100% reliable, they've replaced my drive unit twice, battery once, six door handles, a LCD screen, but it's all under good will NDA care, so... er, sorry, I can't actually tell you any of this."
BoorishBears 5y ago
> As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. Can you point to a case of this? Literally written yesterday: https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla-model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-million-miles-and-n-1848362945 https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla-model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-mil... > One Tesla Model S Has Gone Nearly 1 Million Miles And Needed Some Major Repairs > The owner, Hansjörg von Gemmingen-Hornberg says the car is on at least its third battery. The first was replaced under warranty at about 180,000 miles. The second was replaced after about 93,000 additional miles before the third battery was installed. So far, the Model S has done more than 621,000 miles on that third battery. >That isn’t all. The car also needed four drive motors to reach over 900,000 miles. The P85 has only one drive motor on the real axle. That means three different drive motors have failed. - An out of warranty battery replacement is 20k or so and drive motor replacement is about 10k, so I think it's safe to say we're talking about the equivalent cost in drivetrain replacements to what? 4 engines or 5 engines in an ICE? Assuming a rather expensive engine since the Model S is technically a luxury car? Not really doing any better than an ICE: https://www.thedrive.com/news/27940/2000-honda-accord-with-over-1-million-miles-surfaces-in-north-carolina https://www.thedrive.com/news/27940/2000-honda-accord-with-o... (Note all of their engine replacements combined would cost less in CO2 and money than a single DU swap on the Model S) Here's one with no replacements at all: https://www.thedrive.com/news/29982/this-2006-honda-civic-hit-a-million-miles-on-its-original-engine-and-transmission https://www.thedrive.com/news/29982/this-2006-honda-civic-hi... And another with none: https://www.metrostlouis.org/news-release/second-metro-transit-bus-achieves-million-mile-mark-on-original-engine/ https://www.metrostlouis.org/news-release/second-metro-trans... There's more if you want to look. - Technically you can drag most modern ICEs (or any vehicle for that matter) along to a million miles, but different cars are more or less likely to make it without major issues. Tesla is not who I'm expecting to make the most million mile worthy EV. EVs are not some magical land compared to every other product in existence: Chasing new hotness so ruthlessly you consider model years an undue burden is not a recipe for a long-term reliable car. The EVs that will do 1 million miles without major work (at the very least not needing entire drive units) will come from "boring" companies with "boring" designs.
- userbinator 5y ago

by Andys 5y ago

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

An ICE vehicle can last 15+ years. Even more in a benign environment. Tesla doesn't make anything that will last that long.

MisterBastahrd 5y ago
That's why the auto industry is anticipating that leasing will eventually be the standard model. Nobody is going to want to pay half a new car's price just to have a new battery installed.

DenseComet 5y ago

Isn't that a function of being an EV rather than an ICE? I'd expect an EV from any of the traditional automakers to also require comparatively little maintenance.

Syonyk 5y ago

> As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. It was a reference to an old post of mine (https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwaway-cars/ https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwawa...) - and, I actually agree with you that they do have million-mile grade drivetrains. It's just that the rest of the car is poor quality. That's fine if it's cheap and easy to fix, but it's not. You can't get the parts, you can't install the parts if you can get them because they have to be paired with the car, and, in general, they're like a lot of modern ICEs that fall apart around a running drivetrain. Except worse, because they're luxury cars and you can't even do the repair work yourself.

vel0city 5y ago
It's interesting reading your blog post, as there's essentially a lot of projection as to what life would be like for Tesla drivers post-warranty. It's now over four years since you wrote that post, it would be neat to see how it's turned out.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  Unfortunately, I no longer work with enough Tesla owners to have a reasonable sample, and I've lost my tolerance for the Tesla corners of the internet years ago. Someone should talk to owners and do that, but it's hard to get straight out of Tesla owners since so many are personally invested in Tesla succeeding. "Yeah, it's been 100% reliable, they've replaced my drive unit twice, battery once, six door handles, a LCD screen, but it's all under good will NDA care, so... er, sorry, I can't actually tell you any of this."

BoorishBears 5y ago

> As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. Can you point to a case of this? Literally written yesterday: https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla-model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-million-miles-and-n-1848362945 https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla-model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-mil... > One Tesla Model S Has Gone Nearly 1 Million Miles And Needed Some Major Repairs > The owner, Hansjörg von Gemmingen-Hornberg says the car is on at least its third battery. The first was replaced under warranty at about 180,000 miles. The second was replaced after about 93,000 additional miles before the third battery was installed. So far, the Model S has done more than 621,000 miles on that third battery. >That isn’t all. The car also needed four drive motors to reach over 900,000 miles. The P85 has only one drive motor on the real axle. That means three different drive motors have failed. - An out of warranty battery replacement is 20k or so and drive motor replacement is about 10k, so I think it's safe to say we're talking about the equivalent cost in drivetrain replacements to what? 4 engines or 5 engines in an ICE? Assuming a rather expensive engine since the Model S is technically a luxury car? Not really doing any better than an ICE: https://www.thedrive.com/news/27940/2000-honda-accord-with-over-1-million-miles-surfaces-in-north-carolina https://www.thedrive.com/news/27940/2000-honda-accord-with-o... (Note all of their engine replacements combined would cost less in CO2 and money than a single DU swap on the Model S) Here's one with no replacements at all: https://www.thedrive.com/news/29982/this-2006-honda-civic-hit-a-million-miles-on-its-original-engine-and-transmission https://www.thedrive.com/news/29982/this-2006-honda-civic-hi... And another with none: https://www.metrostlouis.org/news-release/second-metro-transit-bus-achieves-million-mile-mark-on-original-engine/ https://www.metrostlouis.org/news-release/second-metro-trans... There's more if you want to look. - Technically you can drag most modern ICEs (or any vehicle for that matter) along to a million miles, but different cars are more or less likely to make it without major issues. Tesla is not who I'm expecting to make the most million mile worthy EV. EVs are not some magical land compared to every other product in existence: Chasing new hotness so ruthlessly you consider model years an undue burden is not a recipe for a long-term reliable car. The EVs that will do 1 million miles without major work (at the very least not needing entire drive units) will come from "boring" companies with "boring" designs.

userbinator 5y ago