5 ms·

The only reason why Tesla hates dealerships is because they don't want to pay them, full stop. All those horrors can also happen without dealerships, see above.

by foepys 5y ago

The only reason why Tesla hates dealerships is because they don't want to pay them, full stop. All those horrors can also happen without dealerships, see above. Tesla wants people to pay the sticker price without being able to haggle and wants to keep all the profits for itself. VW can deliver EVs for a similar price even with a dealership network. Although, they also started to block haggling by demanding customers to place their orders online via their car configurator. As long as you sell it as innovation, people will jump on it, even if this innovation is costing them more money.

fallingknife 5y ago
You think haggling is going to come out in your favor? The dealership does it every day.
- foepys 5y ago
  If that's the case, why should auto makers now demand you pay sticker price? Public companies don't do anything in your favor, ever. It's always because they think that they can now extract even more money from you.
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  At the moment it's hard enough to get hold of a car even if you walk in with the money to pay for it. As such, haggling is unlikely to work. At other times when the dealers are desperate to make a specific quota a good deal is more likely.
- bityard 5y ago
  People who pay the dealerships asking price on a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    People who pay for a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.
Retric 5y ago
Because clearly all the people working at a dealership plus all the capital tied up in a dealership has no economic downsides. It turns out dealerships don’t extract equivalent money from every customer. It’s not about haggling skills it’s simply a question of leverage on the part of a dealership. If they both have plenty of inventory and know you’re happy to walk somewhere else then they will take their thin slice of the transaction and move on. If however inventory is tight or your unlikely to walk then prepared to get screwed. It’s not even about credit or haggling skills, plenty of seriously up market dealerships for exotics financially screw their customers on a regular basis.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  The dealership system is to provide assurance to the buyer that a corporate entity under the authority of the state's regulators and law enforcement officers but also available to sell parts, perform warranty service, and repair the vehicle. A dealer being willing to sell a company's cars serves as some assurance that the car manufacturer is stable, reputable, etc. This all came into being during the big automotive industry boom in the 20's when car frames/powertrains were made by manufacturers and then a "coachworks" company would put a body on that..and both powertrain and coachwork companies were often in business just long enough to get some cars out the door before customers discovered poor workmanship, assemblies not designed to be repaired, non-standard fastener sizes and so on. It was common for people to buy a car, drive it home several states away (in an age where there was no interstate highway system!) and discover that their car was falling apart. Oh hey, what does Tesla have problems with? Poor parts availability, warranty issues, long waits for repairs... I wish I were exaggerating when I say Tesla was telling Model S owners that water getting inside the main drive unit (which contains not just the electric motor but the motor's power electronics) because of a faulty seal on a speed sensor was the customer's fault because they drove the car in heavy rain. There is little distinguishing Elon Musk from the shysters in the 1920's that all these pesky regulations were written to address.
  - bfung 5y ago
    Any reference materials / history on car dealerships and how they’re part of the ecosystem? When I was writing software for dealership stocking (19 years ago now), it was pretty clear to me that there’s no good reason dealerships exist, as states could also make laws that covered the manufacturer. It made sense when manufacturers didn’t know how to scale out end consumer services, like marketing, financing, repair, etc. But now in the 2000s and 2020s, all the manufacturers have their own distribution and financing arm as well. It turns out that people want to buy from manufacturers: “it’s a Ford dealership”, “it’s a Toyota dealership” as opposed to “it’s bfung’s cars”. The extra indirection and separation of legal entities actually make a worse user experience. In addition, to be able to use the manufacturer’s brand, the dealerships new car pricing are all subject to the manufacturer, so no arbitrage opportunities can be made, except for getting suckers. The incentives of the dealership has skewed toward pushing services and used cars as that’s where they make money now.
eptcyka 5y ago
VW is a bad example because their EV lineup is full of horribly inefficient cars with pathological infotainment systems. And, from the looks of them, it seems like the bespoke EV platform is a vague rehash of an existing ICE platform given how the extra space an EV platform could allow for isn't being utilized. Have no illusions though, I wouldn't buy a tesla either.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  Can you explain more about how their EVs are inefficient? Do you mean miles traveled per charge time, or something else?
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    Sounds like he has been watching Sandy Munro who has complained about the VW ID 4 not being up to par with Tesla in terms of efficient design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zu46ojkbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zu46ojkbo
  - eptcyka 5y ago
    I'll gladly eat my own words. I had seen some video reviews of the ID.4 and the ID.3 on youtube complaining about getting far less range than what was advertised, but seemingly the advertised range and stated battery capacities seem to indicate that the VW EVs are just as efficient as Teslas are.
  - karmicthreat 5y ago
    Engineering explained has a good video on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2txPzRP5DM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2txPzRP5DM it also addresses some of the user experience in aspects in a quantitative way. The vehicle efficiency is a factor, since it mean needing less energy. But really Tesla is far and above the other companies with the user experience in regards to charging. You can just plunk in your destination in the onboard navigation and be reasonably sure that everything will go smooth. Tesla monitors their chargers, tries to steer you to where you will get service and the chargers will perform very well charging your vehicle. It's a good experience. Mach-e using Electrify America is probably the next best. But has issues. Porsche/VW don't really have a good experience, and the others are even worse. Tesla figured out early on that they have to sell an entire system, not just a car. Depending on 3rd parties to make that happen is foolish when it affects the core viability of your product. As the legacy OEMs are finding out.
HWR_14 5y ago
In fairness, in today's market "blocking haggling" is a pro consumer move because dealerships are charging above MSRP for many EVs.

by foepys 5y ago

fallingknife 5y ago

You think haggling is going to come out in your favor? The dealership does it every day.

foepys 5y ago
If that's the case, why should auto makers now demand you pay sticker price? Public companies don't do anything in your favor, ever. It's always because they think that they can now extract even more money from you.
VBprogrammer 5y ago
At the moment it's hard enough to get hold of a car even if you walk in with the money to pay for it. As such, haggling is unlikely to work. At other times when the dealers are desperate to make a specific quota a good deal is more likely.
bityard 5y ago
People who pay the dealerships asking price on a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.
- blitzar 5y ago
  People who pay for a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.

Retric 5y ago

Because clearly all the people working at a dealership plus all the capital tied up in a dealership has no economic downsides. It turns out dealerships don’t extract equivalent money from every customer. It’s not about haggling skills it’s simply a question of leverage on the part of a dealership. If they both have plenty of inventory and know you’re happy to walk somewhere else then they will take their thin slice of the transaction and move on. If however inventory is tight or your unlikely to walk then prepared to get screwed. It’s not even about credit or haggling skills, plenty of seriously up market dealerships for exotics financially screw their customers on a regular basis.

KennyBlanken 5y ago
The dealership system is to provide assurance to the buyer that a corporate entity under the authority of the state's regulators and law enforcement officers but also available to sell parts, perform warranty service, and repair the vehicle. A dealer being willing to sell a company's cars serves as some assurance that the car manufacturer is stable, reputable, etc. This all came into being during the big automotive industry boom in the 20's when car frames/powertrains were made by manufacturers and then a "coachworks" company would put a body on that..and both powertrain and coachwork companies were often in business just long enough to get some cars out the door before customers discovered poor workmanship, assemblies not designed to be repaired, non-standard fastener sizes and so on. It was common for people to buy a car, drive it home several states away (in an age where there was no interstate highway system!) and discover that their car was falling apart. Oh hey, what does Tesla have problems with? Poor parts availability, warranty issues, long waits for repairs... I wish I were exaggerating when I say Tesla was telling Model S owners that water getting inside the main drive unit (which contains not just the electric motor but the motor's power electronics) because of a faulty seal on a speed sensor was the customer's fault because they drove the car in heavy rain. There is little distinguishing Elon Musk from the shysters in the 1920's that all these pesky regulations were written to address.
- bfung 5y ago
  Any reference materials / history on car dealerships and how they’re part of the ecosystem? When I was writing software for dealership stocking (19 years ago now), it was pretty clear to me that there’s no good reason dealerships exist, as states could also make laws that covered the manufacturer. It made sense when manufacturers didn’t know how to scale out end consumer services, like marketing, financing, repair, etc. But now in the 2000s and 2020s, all the manufacturers have their own distribution and financing arm as well. It turns out that people want to buy from manufacturers: “it’s a Ford dealership”, “it’s a Toyota dealership” as opposed to “it’s bfung’s cars”. The extra indirection and separation of legal entities actually make a worse user experience. In addition, to be able to use the manufacturer’s brand, the dealerships new car pricing are all subject to the manufacturer, so no arbitrage opportunities can be made, except for getting suckers. The incentives of the dealership has skewed toward pushing services and used cars as that’s where they make money now.

eptcyka 5y ago

VW is a bad example because their EV lineup is full of horribly inefficient cars with pathological infotainment systems. And, from the looks of them, it seems like the bespoke EV platform is a vague rehash of an existing ICE platform given how the extra space an EV platform could allow for isn't being utilized. Have no illusions though, I wouldn't buy a tesla either.

gnicholas 5y ago
Can you explain more about how their EVs are inefficient? Do you mean miles traveled per charge time, or something else?
- nebula8804 5y ago
  Sounds like he has been watching Sandy Munro who has complained about the VW ID 4 not being up to par with Tesla in terms of efficient design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zu46ojkbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zu46ojkbo
- eptcyka 5y ago
  I'll gladly eat my own words. I had seen some video reviews of the ID.4 and the ID.3 on youtube complaining about getting far less range than what was advertised, but seemingly the advertised range and stated battery capacities seem to indicate that the VW EVs are just as efficient as Teslas are.
- karmicthreat 5y ago
  Engineering explained has a good video on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2txPzRP5DM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2txPzRP5DM it also addresses some of the user experience in aspects in a quantitative way. The vehicle efficiency is a factor, since it mean needing less energy. But really Tesla is far and above the other companies with the user experience in regards to charging. You can just plunk in your destination in the onboard navigation and be reasonably sure that everything will go smooth. Tesla monitors their chargers, tries to steer you to where you will get service and the chargers will perform very well charging your vehicle. It's a good experience. Mach-e using Electrify America is probably the next best. But has issues. Porsche/VW don't really have a good experience, and the others are even worse. Tesla figured out early on that they have to sell an entire system, not just a car. Depending on 3rd parties to make that happen is foolish when it affects the core viability of your product. As the legacy OEMs are finding out.

HWR_14 5y ago

In fairness, in today's market "blocking haggling" is a pro consumer move because dealerships are charging above MSRP for many EVs.