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> We should be subsidizing conversions like this. This is the epitome of the current green movement. Proponents want an unnecessary luxury green product subsid

> We should be subsidizing conversions like this. This is the epitome of the current green movement. Proponents want an unnecessary luxury green product subsidized for higher income households, even though there are perfectly fine substitutes that are just as good for the environment at 1/5 the cost you just described. I just can't get on board with a movement like this.

antishatter 5y ago
I mean, they could have just fixed their gas leak (lol what the fuck) and bought a nice hood. Even having to suggest people fix their gas leak is comedic and reminds me of how absurd many tech people are. Bragging about transitioning, recommending a subsidy, allowing a gas leak.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  if you have natural gas service there are probably active gas leaks in your city from the supply lines, gas is very leaky
  - maccard 5y ago
    Just because there's gas leaks elsewhere doesn't mean I want one in my kitchen.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      Oh sure, but it's very common to have a minor leak in your home and be relatively unaware. Just by nature of natural gas service existing you're being exposed to leaks by your municipality. It's better to be rid of it entirely. Washington DC, for example, has over 5,000 leaks. Boston leaks ~50,000 tons a year. I suspect 50 years from now natural gas will be remembered as fondly as leaded gasoline is today.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Here in New Orleans they take your meter if you report a leak and you can’t get it back for a couple weeks and thousands in reconnection fees because they don’t trust people’s plumbers apparently and have to reinspect everything themselves
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    > and thousands in reconnection fees because they don’t trust people’s plumbers apparently and have to reinspect everything themselves That makes my regulatory capture spidey senses tingle in several different ways.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      The New Orleans City Council regulates them, not the state. Not sure if the city Building and Permits office (which has had its own travails) gets involved in this.
adrianN 5y ago
So choose the amount you subsidize so that the cheapest reasonable solution becomes affordable to most people. There are induction stoves costing just a few hundred dollars for example. There is no need to subsidize $3k, but subsidizing electrical or plumbing work to replace fossil fuels with electricity makes perfect sense.
neutronicus 5y ago
Certainly the case with electric cars. Subsidy in the form of a tax credit (so you need to front the government the money until tax season), so that you can buy something that basically only works if you own a house, into which you've already installed some infrastructure, itself subsidized via tax credit. I can't help but think it would have been better to subsidize the purchase of used hybrids (or, you know, transit)
- crisdux 5y ago
  I agree with you on hybrids, I think hybrids are a better fit for most people right now. Especially for renters and households with one car. I also think people need to come to terms with the reality of the world we live in right now and take responsibility for their own resiliency. We cannot externalize complete resiliency to government. We are in a bit of a chaotic transition right now. In the last two years we've seen electricity failures, public safety failures and basic government services failing. I think people need to make sure their lives are resilient through decisions like should I buy an EV or hybrid. Overall I'm not against green subsidies. I'm against subsidies going to higher income households, it's government transfers to the rich! Especially in California, their green subsidies benefit the rich and hurt the poor.
Tiktaalik 5y ago
We've wound up with subsidies because it is what is politically feasible. The most efficient approach would be to correctly price the negative externalities of gas on health and environment, but pragmatically politicians understand that enormous carbon taxes are a very quick way to be voted out of office. Accordingly we arrive at the solutions available: subsidies for alternatives and/or a very slow phase in of carbon taxes. Progressive jurisdictions are straight up banning gas hookups in new developments for environmental and health reasons.

antishatter 5y ago

I mean, they could have just fixed their gas leak (lol what the fuck) and bought a nice hood. Even having to suggest people fix their gas leak is comedic and reminds me of how absurd many tech people are. Bragging about transitioning, recommending a subsidy, allowing a gas leak.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
if you have natural gas service there are probably active gas leaks in your city from the supply lines, gas is very leaky
- maccard 5y ago
  Just because there's gas leaks elsewhere doesn't mean I want one in my kitchen.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    Oh sure, but it's very common to have a minor leak in your home and be relatively unaware. Just by nature of natural gas service existing you're being exposed to leaks by your municipality. It's better to be rid of it entirely. Washington DC, for example, has over 5,000 leaks. Boston leaks ~50,000 tons a year. I suspect 50 years from now natural gas will be remembered as fondly as leaded gasoline is today.
selimthegrim 5y ago
Here in New Orleans they take your meter if you report a leak and you can’t get it back for a couple weeks and thousands in reconnection fees because they don’t trust people’s plumbers apparently and have to reinspect everything themselves
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  > and thousands in reconnection fees because they don’t trust people’s plumbers apparently and have to reinspect everything themselves That makes my regulatory capture spidey senses tingle in several different ways.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    The New Orleans City Council regulates them, not the state. Not sure if the city Building and Permits office (which has had its own travails) gets involved in this.

adrianN 5y ago

So choose the amount you subsidize so that the cheapest reasonable solution becomes affordable to most people. There are induction stoves costing just a few hundred dollars for example. There is no need to subsidize $3k, but subsidizing electrical or plumbing work to replace fossil fuels with electricity makes perfect sense.

neutronicus 5y ago

Certainly the case with electric cars. Subsidy in the form of a tax credit (so you need to front the government the money until tax season), so that you can buy something that basically only works if you own a house, into which you've already installed some infrastructure, itself subsidized via tax credit. I can't help but think it would have been better to subsidize the purchase of used hybrids (or, you know, transit)

crisdux 5y ago
I agree with you on hybrids, I think hybrids are a better fit for most people right now. Especially for renters and households with one car. I also think people need to come to terms with the reality of the world we live in right now and take responsibility for their own resiliency. We cannot externalize complete resiliency to government. We are in a bit of a chaotic transition right now. In the last two years we've seen electricity failures, public safety failures and basic government services failing. I think people need to make sure their lives are resilient through decisions like should I buy an EV or hybrid. Overall I'm not against green subsidies. I'm against subsidies going to higher income households, it's government transfers to the rich! Especially in California, their green subsidies benefit the rich and hurt the poor.

Tiktaalik 5y ago

We've wound up with subsidies because it is what is politically feasible. The most efficient approach would be to correctly price the negative externalities of gas on health and environment, but pragmatically politicians understand that enormous carbon taxes are a very quick way to be voted out of office. Accordingly we arrive at the solutions available: subsidies for alternatives and/or a very slow phase in of carbon taxes. Progressive jurisdictions are straight up banning gas hookups in new developments for environmental and health reasons.