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Alright, how does a potential recipient use those funds? Pay rent? No, because the government would notice the missing income on the landlords tax return. Pay

Alright, how does a potential recipient use those funds? Pay rent? No, because the government would notice the missing income on the landlords tax return. Pay for food and other goods? No, because the government would not allow companies to take funds from permissionless blockchains. Buy real estate or a car? No because those needs to be registered with the government as well and payments are regularly checked for fraud and money laundering. A black market for all of the above? Sure but any government to weak too prevent a black market of this scale would also be unable to restrict transactions (no matter the method) in the first place.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Conversion of bitcoin to whatever currency is hard to block. USSR had death penalty (!) for buying or selling things using foreigh currency. Yet, the black was persistent. Also, we are talking about the unbanked: people who otherwise have no other state-sanctioned way to use financial services. Bitcoin first and foremost helps such people.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Also, we are talking about the unbanked: people who otherwise have no other state-sanctioned way to use financial services. Bitcoin first and foremost helps such people. No. No it doesn't. The main reason for a large portion of the unbanked population is that they are so poor that they can't even afford to open and maintain a bank account. But sure, "we require a person to have a smartphone with always-on internet connection to do anything useful and have egregious transaction fees in most popular chains" surely does help the unbanked.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    I got into bitcoin when i could receive payment from a client that normally was declined to process by banks in our respective countries, and options like Paypal were too expensive. In the result buying buying bitcoin for a client for his currency, sending it to me and selling for my currency was cheaper than simply converting USD to my local currency. That's where I understood that bitcoin is a great thing and is here to stay. It is enough to shut your argument. I wasn't poor, but absurd restrictions by banks stood in my way just the same. Bitcoin liberates money.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > It is enough to shut your argument. It really isn't. > I wasn't poor I, I, I. So if your personal anecdote "shuts down" my argument, then my personal anecdote of never having these problems sure as hell shuts yours. What crypto peddlers don't understand is that: - money transfer doesn't need blockchain in any shape or form - restrictions and regulations exist for a reason, and these reasons are being rapidly discovered by all the people who are being scammed in the web3 space - the moment money transfer over presents even a fraction of what banks routinely do, they will introduce same money transfers at a fraction of the cost (and they already have, in many parts of the world, but not because of blockchain)
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        What YOU don't understand that bitcoin has 2 key properties: permissionless and artificial scarcity. I haven't heard of any successful implementation of both without the use of Blockchain. Have you? Whatever else you'd offer would have a CA at the core which can censor and block people under duress or at will. Restrictions and regulations exist for a reason, here I agree with you. What I don't agree with it that this regulation is good. I think most of it is very very bad for people, designed to keep them under control. In my country, this control takes very draconian forms against anyone who is in opposition to the (criminal) government.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > 2 key properties: permissionless and artificial scarcity. I haven't heard of any successful implementation of both without the use of Blockchain. Have you? Perhaps Because they are not that interesting or useful? So far you've given me two "solutions" in search of a problem. > What I don't agree with it that this regulation is good. I think most of it is very very bad for people, designed to keep them under control. Go and read something on food and drug safety (like Horse Named Jim, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_(horse) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_(horse)), an automotive safety, on emission safety, on workplace safety, on... There's high probability that you're alive and healthy today precisely because of regulations. > In my country, this control takes very draconian forms against anyone who is in opposition to the (criminal) government. Ah yes. And crypto will surely help with that because that criminal government will never ever find a way to bust you for trying to convert that "censorship resistant crypto" into, you know, actual money you have to pay for food, rent, electricity etc.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

Conversion of bitcoin to whatever currency is hard to block. USSR had death penalty (!) for buying or selling things using foreigh currency. Yet, the black was persistent. Also, we are talking about the unbanked: people who otherwise have no other state-sanctioned way to use financial services. Bitcoin first and foremost helps such people.

dmitriid 5y ago
> Also, we are talking about the unbanked: people who otherwise have no other state-sanctioned way to use financial services. Bitcoin first and foremost helps such people. No. No it doesn't. The main reason for a large portion of the unbanked population is that they are so poor that they can't even afford to open and maintain a bank account. But sure, "we require a person to have a smartphone with always-on internet connection to do anything useful and have egregious transaction fees in most popular chains" surely does help the unbanked.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  I got into bitcoin when i could receive payment from a client that normally was declined to process by banks in our respective countries, and options like Paypal were too expensive. In the result buying buying bitcoin for a client for his currency, sending it to me and selling for my currency was cheaper than simply converting USD to my local currency. That's where I understood that bitcoin is a great thing and is here to stay. It is enough to shut your argument. I wasn't poor, but absurd restrictions by banks stood in my way just the same. Bitcoin liberates money.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > It is enough to shut your argument. It really isn't. > I wasn't poor I, I, I. So if your personal anecdote "shuts down" my argument, then my personal anecdote of never having these problems sure as hell shuts yours. What crypto peddlers don't understand is that: - money transfer doesn't need blockchain in any shape or form - restrictions and regulations exist for a reason, and these reasons are being rapidly discovered by all the people who are being scammed in the web3 space - the moment money transfer over presents even a fraction of what banks routinely do, they will introduce same money transfers at a fraction of the cost (and they already have, in many parts of the world, but not because of blockchain)
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      What YOU don't understand that bitcoin has 2 key properties: permissionless and artificial scarcity. I haven't heard of any successful implementation of both without the use of Blockchain. Have you? Whatever else you'd offer would have a CA at the core which can censor and block people under duress or at will. Restrictions and regulations exist for a reason, here I agree with you. What I don't agree with it that this regulation is good. I think most of it is very very bad for people, designed to keep them under control. In my country, this control takes very draconian forms against anyone who is in opposition to the (criminal) government.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > 2 key properties: permissionless and artificial scarcity. I haven't heard of any successful implementation of both without the use of Blockchain. Have you? Perhaps Because they are not that interesting or useful? So far you've given me two "solutions" in search of a problem. > What I don't agree with it that this regulation is good. I think most of it is very very bad for people, designed to keep them under control. Go and read something on food and drug safety (like Horse Named Jim, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_(horse) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_(horse)), an automotive safety, on emission safety, on workplace safety, on... There's high probability that you're alive and healthy today precisely because of regulations. > In my country, this control takes very draconian forms against anyone who is in opposition to the (criminal) government. Ah yes. And crypto will surely help with that because that criminal government will never ever find a way to bust you for trying to convert that "censorship resistant crypto" into, you know, actual money you have to pay for food, rent, electricity etc.