3 ms·

Am I reading you correctly in that, at the end of the day, you simply just want breasts and a vagina? Or do you want something more broad here? I broadly thoug

by AlexSW 5y ago

Am I reading you correctly in that, at the end of the day, you simply just want breasts and a vagina? Or do you want something more broad here? I broadly thought transgenderism was about a desire to be perceived and feel/identify on all levels as a man when assigned female at birth and woman when assigned male at birth, as opposed to just wanting particular sex organs.

ReactiveJelly 5y ago
Take this all critically, because I can't speak for all trans people. > I broadly thought transgenderism was about a desire to be perceived and feel/identify on all levels as a man when assigned female at birth and woman when assigned male at birth, as opposed to just wanting particular sex organs. It depends. Most of us see gender as a buffet. There are medical, social, and legal ways to transition, and you can take what you want when you want it. A lot of us end up wanting some body modification, but it's not a requirement either way. There are lots of non-binary people, so the trans umbrella also includes people who don't feel or identify as men or women. I feel kinship with them, because it feels a little hollow when I assert that "I am a woman". I don't know what it means to feel like a man or a woman. I don't think the non-binary spectrum is a space "between" man and woman, I think it's the entire space around and outside of man and woman. I won't mind if I find myself there somehow. > you simply just want breasts and a vagina? Or do you want something more broad here? I might have exaggerated. It will take a lot of words to clear it up. For me, the medical transition definitely is the most important part. I do want she/her pronouns, but they're secondary. I'll emphasize again that I'm not speaking on behalf of all other trans people, because if I talked about other people the way I talk about myself, it would be exclusionary. But in my case, the she/her pronouns are part of presenting as a woman, and I only want them as part of the whole package, if that makes sense. I prioritized my transition based on a ranking of something like "What is the cheapest? What requires the least permission from other people? What am I least likely to regret?" At a high level, this put the 3 pieces in this order: - Medical first, because I have to live in my own body all day no matter what. - Social second, because it would eventually be weird to look like a woman and still tell people that I'm a man, but I wasn't too upset about he/him pronouns back when I was still questioning my own gender. - Legal last, because it's a big commitment and it didn't bother me that much to be legally male. At a low level, they overlap a bit. I started laser hair removal and hormone replacement about a year before I changed my name and pronouns at work, but I am now waiting for COVID to clear up before I can even think about genital surgery. And gender is just so weird that, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. But what I'm realizing is, I consider the pronouns to be part of my presentation. During that first year of HRT, I wasn't actually sure if I would be a woman at the end. I don't have an internal compass for gender, I had to try it out and see if I would like it. So I didn't mind being "he/him" when I was still questioning. It was a secondary priority. But after a while, it got to be weird that my medical transition was going amazing and I was still "he/him" at work. I grew my hair out, I painted my nails and gradually wore more feminine clothes, and it got to feel like, in terms of the clothing and presentation, I had crossed from "Man with long hair" to "Woman with male pronouns". So then I came out to my coworkers, changed my name and email in the computers, and luckily everyone was okay with it. In a world where everyone is an ally and pronouns are always respected, yes, I want to use she/her. I don't really know if people see me as a woman, I don't pass very well, but the pronouns are at least a green flag that people are being polite to me, regardless of what they think. But in the real world, I was extremely reluctant to ask for something that could be trivially denied or could spark a politics debate around the office. So... I hope that clears it up a little. For me transitioning has been first and foremost about reconciling my mind and my body. I spend a lot of time alone, and I spend a lot of time online where I don't need a gender, and I like that. In HN threads that aren't about gender, I'm not a woman who programs, or a woman who was assigned male at birth, I'm just a programmer who programs. But out in the bizarre real world, "My pronouns are she/her" is an invitation to be invalidated, and "I'm buying a vagina and nobody can stop me" is a statement of fact. I let myself be a little macho sometimes. Even cis women do it.
- AlexSW 5y ago
  That all makes a lot of sense. And I think you've helped something 'click' for me (and hopefully others) in understanding some things here, thank you for your time writing all of this up! It's really appreciated. A quick final questions on pronouns, if you have time: I'm contemplating the idea of just using they/them pronouns for everyone. I quite like the idea currently for a few reasons, and I can't imagine people being offended by it(?). But one negative I could see is that, when someone asks for others to use particular pronouns for them (e.g. she/her), using those pronouns I can imagine would be a nice acknowledgement/validation/show of support etc., which using they/them instead probably wouldn't give. Did you have any opinion on people making such a choice, given any insight you might have from your own experiences or an understanding of the LPGTQ+/etc. community? I'd definitely like to be able to reasonably justify it as a rule (even if someone's specified certain pronouns).

by AlexSW 5y ago

ReactiveJelly 5y ago

Take this all critically, because I can't speak for all trans people. > I broadly thought transgenderism was about a desire to be perceived and feel/identify on all levels as a man when assigned female at birth and woman when assigned male at birth, as opposed to just wanting particular sex organs. It depends. Most of us see gender as a buffet. There are medical, social, and legal ways to transition, and you can take what you want when you want it. A lot of us end up wanting some body modification, but it's not a requirement either way. There are lots of non-binary people, so the trans umbrella also includes people who don't feel or identify as men or women. I feel kinship with them, because it feels a little hollow when I assert that "I am a woman". I don't know what it means to feel like a man or a woman. I don't think the non-binary spectrum is a space "between" man and woman, I think it's the entire space around and outside of man and woman. I won't mind if I find myself there somehow. > you simply just want breasts and a vagina? Or do you want something more broad here? I might have exaggerated. It will take a lot of words to clear it up. For me, the medical transition definitely is the most important part. I do want she/her pronouns, but they're secondary. I'll emphasize again that I'm not speaking on behalf of all other trans people, because if I talked about other people the way I talk about myself, it would be exclusionary. But in my case, the she/her pronouns are part of presenting as a woman, and I only want them as part of the whole package, if that makes sense. I prioritized my transition based on a ranking of something like "What is the cheapest? What requires the least permission from other people? What am I least likely to regret?" At a high level, this put the 3 pieces in this order: - Medical first, because I have to live in my own body all day no matter what. - Social second, because it would eventually be weird to look like a woman and still tell people that I'm a man, but I wasn't too upset about he/him pronouns back when I was still questioning my own gender. - Legal last, because it's a big commitment and it didn't bother me that much to be legally male. At a low level, they overlap a bit. I started laser hair removal and hormone replacement about a year before I changed my name and pronouns at work, but I am now waiting for COVID to clear up before I can even think about genital surgery. And gender is just so weird that, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. But what I'm realizing is, I consider the pronouns to be part of my presentation. During that first year of HRT, I wasn't actually sure if I would be a woman at the end. I don't have an internal compass for gender, I had to try it out and see if I would like it. So I didn't mind being "he/him" when I was still questioning. It was a secondary priority. But after a while, it got to be weird that my medical transition was going amazing and I was still "he/him" at work. I grew my hair out, I painted my nails and gradually wore more feminine clothes, and it got to feel like, in terms of the clothing and presentation, I had crossed from "Man with long hair" to "Woman with male pronouns". So then I came out to my coworkers, changed my name and email in the computers, and luckily everyone was okay with it. In a world where everyone is an ally and pronouns are always respected, yes, I want to use she/her. I don't really know if people see me as a woman, I don't pass very well, but the pronouns are at least a green flag that people are being polite to me, regardless of what they think. But in the real world, I was extremely reluctant to ask for something that could be trivially denied or could spark a politics debate around the office. So... I hope that clears it up a little. For me transitioning has been first and foremost about reconciling my mind and my body. I spend a lot of time alone, and I spend a lot of time online where I don't need a gender, and I like that. In HN threads that aren't about gender, I'm not a woman who programs, or a woman who was assigned male at birth, I'm just a programmer who programs. But out in the bizarre real world, "My pronouns are she/her" is an invitation to be invalidated, and "I'm buying a vagina and nobody can stop me" is a statement of fact. I let myself be a little macho sometimes. Even cis women do it.

AlexSW 5y ago
That all makes a lot of sense. And I think you've helped something 'click' for me (and hopefully others) in understanding some things here, thank you for your time writing all of this up! It's really appreciated. A quick final questions on pronouns, if you have time: I'm contemplating the idea of just using they/them pronouns for everyone. I quite like the idea currently for a few reasons, and I can't imagine people being offended by it(?). But one negative I could see is that, when someone asks for others to use particular pronouns for them (e.g. she/her), using those pronouns I can imagine would be a nice acknowledgement/validation/show of support etc., which using they/them instead probably wouldn't give. Did you have any opinion on people making such a choice, given any insight you might have from your own experiences or an understanding of the LPGTQ+/etc. community? I'd definitely like to be able to reasonably justify it as a rule (even if someone's specified certain pronouns).