4 ms·

> one day someone steals your private key which represents your car ownership, that person is now the owner of your car. Why take such a naive blockchain as ex

> one day someone steals your private key which represents your car ownership, that person is now the owner of your car. Why take such a naive blockchain as example? You could very well have a proof of authority blockchain so that 3 notary have to sign a car transaction. You could also very well have revocation lists published on the blockchain by a further authority if keys are stolen. There are hundreds of ways to make this work. At the very least, that would allow me to know that I'm not buying a stolen car.

robjan 5y ago
Who appoints the notaries?
- beertoagunfight 5y ago
  This. I have never gotten a satisfactory answer to how centralization is prevented in such cases.
  - kikimora 5y ago
    Vote with your (imaginary) citizen token to appoint a notary. And have a right to vote against it at any time. With blockchain you can elect new notaries every day if this is how you want to manage it.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      How many votes does it take to appoint a notary? If one or a few, I can set up a corrupt notary (or several) to notarize my fake deal with you. If many, I can't get rid of the corrupt notary (or notaries) you have set up to notarize your fake deal with me. Is either of these particularly great?
      - kikimora 5y ago
        I don't see your point. You attack an outline of a system. Fun system will be complex and I won't describe it here in full. In the same way as today notary appointment procedure is complex and involve multiple organisations. I claim that blockchain solves Byzantine generals problem (BGP) in a scalable way and no other such solution exists. I also claim that this very problem (BGP) is being solved right now in multiple instances by using a trusted middleman, usually appointed, controlled and often funded by the government. I also claim that maintaining trust is not free and often paid from tax money (as in DVLA example). And my last claim that partial or full automation of a middleman function with blockchain is cheaper than running it traditional way (considering all costs involved). Potentially unexpected corollary from the first and second claims - a software without blockchain cannot automate a trusted middleman function because of trust issues. Feel free to attack any of the claims.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        Why would I need to attack any of your claims, when one of them is that the "problem" you cryptards are getting your panties in a bunch about is already solved?
tomputer 5y ago
I don't think it's a naive example. All these kind of proposed blockchain solutions raise the same questions for me: Why do you need a decentralized blockchain with tokens to solve that problem? If not for the tokens, what incentive have people to keep running and protect the blockchain against attacks? The oracle problem: how do you prevent someone from pushing false or duplicate data to the blockchain?
gambiting 5y ago
And literally none of it, not a single step that you mentioned requires blockchain.
- Galanwe 5y ago
  > And literally none of it, not a single step that you mentioned requires blockchain. Then tell me, where is this wonderful centralized database that tells me who owns which car? Blockchains are not just about decentralization, it's also about publishing the actual databases in the wild for everyone to see, because you have the guarantee that no-one can fake it. Sure, a lot of the use cases could be done with centralized databases, but that's the model we had for decades now, and I don't see any effort to make these centralized databases accessible to everyone.
  - mijamo 5y ago
    Don't know about the US but in most countries you do have those databases. And them not being in the Blockchain makes it easier to solve hard problems such as inheritance disputes, or illegally purchased goods.
  - mimon 5y ago
    I'm don't know where you live, but I have purchased cars in both Australia and the UK and both involved verifying via a centralised database that the car was not stolen or financially encumbered.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>Then tell me, where is this wonderful centralized database that tells me who owns which car? Uhm, here in UK DVLA holds it? Anyone can access it too, you can just check the entire car history including its tax payments as well as technical inspections online. No Blockchain needed. >>because you have the guarantee that no-one can fake it I'd like you to explain why you think that's true. If you assume an external authority is entering details into the blockchain, how is that different to the exact same authority entering details into the systems that we have currently?
lolinder 5y ago
> You could very well have a proof of authority ... > ... by a further authority if keys ... As soon as your blockchain solution requires proof of authority, your trustless solution starts requiring trust in some form of central governance. At that point, what utility does your blockchain solution provide that the DMV database does not?

robjan 5y ago

Who appoints the notaries?

beertoagunfight 5y ago
This. I have never gotten a satisfactory answer to how centralization is prevented in such cases.
- kikimora 5y ago
  Vote with your (imaginary) citizen token to appoint a notary. And have a right to vote against it at any time. With blockchain you can elect new notaries every day if this is how you want to manage it.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    How many votes does it take to appoint a notary? If one or a few, I can set up a corrupt notary (or several) to notarize my fake deal with you. If many, I can't get rid of the corrupt notary (or notaries) you have set up to notarize your fake deal with me. Is either of these particularly great?
    - kikimora 5y ago
      I don't see your point. You attack an outline of a system. Fun system will be complex and I won't describe it here in full. In the same way as today notary appointment procedure is complex and involve multiple organisations. I claim that blockchain solves Byzantine generals problem (BGP) in a scalable way and no other such solution exists. I also claim that this very problem (BGP) is being solved right now in multiple instances by using a trusted middleman, usually appointed, controlled and often funded by the government. I also claim that maintaining trust is not free and often paid from tax money (as in DVLA example). And my last claim that partial or full automation of a middleman function with blockchain is cheaper than running it traditional way (considering all costs involved). Potentially unexpected corollary from the first and second claims - a software without blockchain cannot automate a trusted middleman function because of trust issues. Feel free to attack any of the claims.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        Why would I need to attack any of your claims, when one of them is that the "problem" you cryptards are getting your panties in a bunch about is already solved?

tomputer 5y ago

I don't think it's a naive example. All these kind of proposed blockchain solutions raise the same questions for me: Why do you need a decentralized blockchain with tokens to solve that problem? If not for the tokens, what incentive have people to keep running and protect the blockchain against attacks? The oracle problem: how do you prevent someone from pushing false or duplicate data to the blockchain?

gambiting 5y ago

And literally none of it, not a single step that you mentioned requires blockchain.

Galanwe 5y ago
> And literally none of it, not a single step that you mentioned requires blockchain. Then tell me, where is this wonderful centralized database that tells me who owns which car? Blockchains are not just about decentralization, it's also about publishing the actual databases in the wild for everyone to see, because you have the guarantee that no-one can fake it. Sure, a lot of the use cases could be done with centralized databases, but that's the model we had for decades now, and I don't see any effort to make these centralized databases accessible to everyone.
- mijamo 5y ago
  Don't know about the US but in most countries you do have those databases. And them not being in the Blockchain makes it easier to solve hard problems such as inheritance disputes, or illegally purchased goods.
- mimon 5y ago
  I'm don't know where you live, but I have purchased cars in both Australia and the UK and both involved verifying via a centralised database that the car was not stolen or financially encumbered.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>Then tell me, where is this wonderful centralized database that tells me who owns which car? Uhm, here in UK DVLA holds it? Anyone can access it too, you can just check the entire car history including its tax payments as well as technical inspections online. No Blockchain needed. >>because you have the guarantee that no-one can fake it I'd like you to explain why you think that's true. If you assume an external authority is entering details into the blockchain, how is that different to the exact same authority entering details into the systems that we have currently?

lolinder 5y ago

> You could very well have a proof of authority ... > ... by a further authority if keys ... As soon as your blockchain solution requires proof of authority, your trustless solution starts requiring trust in some form of central governance. At that point, what utility does your blockchain solution provide that the DMV database does not?