5 ms·

First thing I clicked on was C minor... which showed me "C minor scale". Problem is.. Is that a thing? I've not heard of "the C minor scale". I don't think it's

First thing I clicked on was C minor... which showed me "C minor scale". Problem is.. Is that a thing? I've not heard of "the C minor scale". I don't think it's a thing. (Jazz pianist here) In classical piano as a kid I was taught 2 minor scales - melodic (different going up to coming down) and harmonic. Your "minor scale" corresponds to the melodic minor descending, aka Aeolian mode. (i.e. white piano notes from A up to A) [googles it] On the "minor scale" wiki page they mention those three scales - "In music theory, the term minor scale refers to three scale patterns". There is no one "minor scale", that I'm aware of. Well, maybe you were taught that way, I don't know. Dorian mode (i.e. white piano notes from D up to D) is another commonly used minor scale; there are others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

arnarbi 5y ago
The text at the top specifies it's the natural minor (Aeolian)
aczerepinski 5y ago
I think with no modifiers or disclaimers, minor means “natural minor” or aeolian. A few years ago I made a similar site with many more scales and modes than this one: http://www.dbmaj7.com/resources/piano http://www.dbmaj7.com/resources/piano
- cruelty2 5y ago
noslenwerdna 5y ago
They are using the natural minor.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  I don't remember ever hearing that term before, but you say it like there's no doubt I'll know what it means. I'm curious - in what tradition did you learn to call it that? (Probably I'm very out of touch)
  - Tainnor 5y ago
    I don't know much about Jazz music, but I think "natural minor" is a well-understood term among classical musicians. I think in classical music theory, you really "start" from the natural minor and then the harmonic and melodic scales can be explained in terms of leading tones etc. Of course, the way classical music (at least anything between Baroque and Romanticism) works is rather different from the way Jazz works.
    - tritones 5y ago
      Almost all jazz players I've played with and many jazz textbooks use aeolian when referring to natural minor.
    - yesenadam 5y ago
      Ah ok thanks. I learnt of it in classical training, and have since read of it in classical books (e.g. classical music theory, or philosophy of music books concerned mainly with classical music), as the melodic minor descending. But seems I never understood "natural minor" so maybe unconsiously ignored that term or something.
  - adrianmonk 5y ago
    Not the person you asked, but I learned the same terms as on wikipedia (natural, melodic, and harmonic minor) in music theory class. I took the class at a public high school in the US. I think my teacher was also the orchestra teacher. We generally used minor (with no modifiers) to typically mean natural minor, but the teacher also essentially said that minor can mean a lot of things and gets complicated.
thecatster 5y ago
Jazz vibraphonist here: pretty sure there isn't a definitive "minor scale," as you say. 4 (3?) of the modes are considered minor, 2 major, and the weird one (dominant 7). So I completely agree it's a bit misleading to just call things "the minor scale." Although I do think I was initially taught the "minor scale" was the natural minor, so that may be where the OPs decision comes from. Edit: Just saw info on the site. It is using natural.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  Hi. I don't remember ever hearing the term "natural minor" either hehe. I've never thought about it too much, but I think improvising on a tune with a C- or C-7 etc chord symbol, like a C minor blues, I (mostly) wouldn't use Ab in the scale but A. Dorian is the modern jazz go-to minor scale, I think. Maybe all the versions of So What/Impressions I've been listening to lately have distorted my ear :-) I'd be more likely to use a scale with a B natural than one with an Ab. Well, come to think of it, one of my complaints about the institutionalization of jazz has been that everyone learns to play the same scale over a minor chord! And it's better if everyone has their own ideas...
  - airstrike 5y ago
    From https://muted.io/c-minor-scale/ https://muted.io/c-minor-scale/ > C natural minor scale. the default when we just say 'C minor scale'
    - yesenadam 5y ago
      I'm not sure why you quote that at me, how you think that will help. Yes, I had a look after my initial click, and saw that. I don't agree that it's the default, that there even is a "default" minor scale, or that that's the most common name for that mode, but I understand I may be in a minority/wrong.
CPLX 5y ago
Without more to go on I think musicians would pretty unanimously consider "minor" to mean Aeolian, aka the sixth mode of the major scale.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  Ok thanks, I guess I'm in the, uh, minority.
nescioquid 5y ago
> First thing I clicked on was C minor... which showed me "C minor scale". Problem is.. Is that a thing? I've not heard of "the C minor scale". I don't think it's a thing. (Jazz pianist here) Eh, just worry about Off Minor.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Of course it's a thing. C major, C natural minor, C melodic minor, C harmonic minor, the whole shebang: all the scales are there for every note, A through G and the sharps/flats. Heck. You could start somewhere in between recognized notes and make a major/minor scale based off that, if you had the right instrument. It's a ratio of frequencies, that's all. That's what all Western music music is based on. Divide the frequency space between N Hz and 2N Hz into 12 segments, pick seven tones out of the 12, then figure out where you're actually going to put the two notes that are right next to each other, half-steps. Extend that for your entire frequency space. (Also, if you devise two neighbor-patterns that are the same when you rotate them around, you're doing modes.) Now, whether anyone plays them in general practice is another thing. Is the harpsichord a real instrument? Obviously on paper, but is it actually a thing?
  - yesenadam 5y ago
    I think GP was just making a Monk joke, which I appreciated a lot - it made me smile and made up in a moment for all these downvotes! My "shallow dismissal" made some interesting discussion appear, at least. ..But, it seems maybe you meant to reply to me, not the GP.
    - fennecfoxen 5y ago
      i might have replied to a child of the post I wanted to reply to yes oooops :D
    - nescioquid 5y ago
      Sorry to hear about the down-votes. Monk always cheers me up, too! I've always found the three forms of the minor scale to be pointless pedantry: Bach was happy enough to write a C-minor piece with two flats on the staff, lowering 6 and raising 7 as needed by voice-leading and harmony, but that doesn't lend itself easily to a silly fingering chart. My misspent youth earned me a degree in theory and composition, but I've found myself in your situation every time I've cracked open a scale book to freshen up and pass a hairy eye-ball over natural, melodic, and harmonic forms. You're right: they are not "real things", they are just a silly pedagogical contraption.
klodolph 5y ago
This is a topic that I think is covered poorly sometimes. It's one of those things that is actually a much longer discussion. Think of it, in increasing complexity, 1. There is a major scale and a minor scale. 2. Actually, there are three minor scales: natural, melodic, and harmonic. 3. Actually, forget about those scales. Think instead more freely about tonality, modal mixtures, secondary dominants, and voice leading. I think that anyone studying music is better off stopping at #1 or going all the way to #3. The problem with stopping at viewpoint #2 is that it's complex enough to make you really think, but not grounded enough in actual musical practice to make that thinking fruitful[1]. There are a lot of reasons why you might want a particular note to be sharp or flat. Sometimes you want a stronger resolution, like V -> i, rather than v -> i, which sounds weak. For that reason, to make better harmony, you may choose to make the 7th scale degree (B) a major 7th (B natural) instead of a minor 7th (B flat). You may also want to resolve a melodic line by half-step, which often sounds stronger, like B->C. But when you are stepping downwards, C->B, that's likely not any kind of resolution, so C->Bb is fine (it's likely not a resolution if you're in the key of C). These melodic concerns drive the "melodic" minor scale (and we drag in the 6th scale degree to avoid an augmented second interval). The catch is... all we're really saying here is, 1. You are free to borrow notes from outside the key, for lots of reasons, and 2. There are lots of reasons in particular why you might want to borrow for the sixth and seventh scale degrees. These deeper concepts get shoehorned into the notions of "melodic minor" and "harmonic minor". So much is lost by shoehorning these ideas into scales that I wonder why we even bother. I think it's really that people like categorizing scales and learning new names for things, which also drives people's fascination with modes, which is totally out of proportion to how much you'd actually want to use them in music. Modes and scales seem to have a particular fascination for hackers in the music scene. I have a lot more to say on this subject, but I'm working on a blog post. [1]: Please note that you definitely can choose to write music using one of these scales as a device, and many people do, and it's good stuff. It's just that most music that most people listen to doesn't make any sense to analyze as using particular minor scales.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  Very good, I agree with every word of that, I look forward to reading it.
robbrown451 5y ago
"The natural minor scale is the most common minor scale, and the default when a musician refers to “a minor scale” or “minor.” The natural minor scale pattern features the same exact notes as the Aeolian mode in modal music." https://www.masterclass.com/articles/minor-scale-guide#what-is-the-difference-between-major-and-minor-scales https://www.masterclass.com/articles/minor-scale-guide#what-...
- yesenadam 5y ago
  Well, I've already written too much on this page! But every part of that seems wrong or very strange. And just before what you quoted: > 3 Types of Minor Scales > There are three types of minor scales in music theory. What type of "music theory"? Dorian mode doesn't count? Maybe 3 in classical music theory, not in jazz or..rock/pop/contemporary music etc. And calling them "types" of minor scale sounds very odd to me. > The natural minor scale is the most common minor scale. Is that true? Arguably not. What sort of music are they talking? Does it mean "out of all music ever written" or "nowadays in music" or..something else? They might mean, "in classical music before the mid 19th C" if they say there are 3 minor scales. Or, most likely, "This is true by definition ..because it's called natural minor." - they probably never thought about if it's true or not. The scale of a piece/song (usually) depends on the melody, and I think Aeolian (i.e. "natural") and Dorian are both common. Possibly Dorian is much more common - that "minor 6" sound very common in pop songs since..forever, the 60s if not way before, is Dorian not Aeolian. It's extremely common in R&B etc. Or like..uh..the second chord of Here, There and Everywhere, Gmajor then Amin, the scale is evidently not Aeolian but Dorian. > the default when a musician refers to “a minor scale” or “minor.” Well, this is questionable too. Depends what kind of music. "Minor" mostly refers to a chord, not a scale. I'm not sure people ever say "a minor scale", when would you (need to) say that? It might mean a minor blues scale in some genres. > The natural minor scale pattern features the same exact notes as the Aeolian mode in modal music. I find that super-bizarre and sounds like they don't know what they're talking about. Features the same exact notes?! - it's the same thing. A little like saying "news.ycombinator.com features the same exact articles as Hacker News". You would think "What the hell are they talking about?!", and that's what I think when I read that sentence.
troutmskreplica 5y ago
I’ve read through parts of the Wikipedia page several times in the past. It’s not ideal. I haven’t studied music theory systematically but I believe all the modes that contain a minor third above the root are technically considered minor scales (so Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, and Locrian), but in addition to that there are of course other constructed scales like melodic minor and harmonic minor as you mention, as well as multiple different scales called the Blues minor scale (the only one I’m familiar with is the one constructed from the minor pentatonic plus a diminished fifth).

arnarbi 5y ago

The text at the top specifies it's the natural minor (Aeolian)

aczerepinski 5y ago

I think with no modifiers or disclaimers, minor means “natural minor” or aeolian. A few years ago I made a similar site with many more scales and modes than this one: http://www.dbmaj7.com/resources/piano http://www.dbmaj7.com/resources/piano

cruelty2 5y ago

noslenwerdna 5y ago

They are using the natural minor.

yesenadam 5y ago
I don't remember ever hearing that term before, but you say it like there's no doubt I'll know what it means. I'm curious - in what tradition did you learn to call it that? (Probably I'm very out of touch)
- Tainnor 5y ago
  I don't know much about Jazz music, but I think "natural minor" is a well-understood term among classical musicians. I think in classical music theory, you really "start" from the natural minor and then the harmonic and melodic scales can be explained in terms of leading tones etc. Of course, the way classical music (at least anything between Baroque and Romanticism) works is rather different from the way Jazz works.
  - tritones 5y ago
    Almost all jazz players I've played with and many jazz textbooks use aeolian when referring to natural minor.
  - yesenadam 5y ago
    Ah ok thanks. I learnt of it in classical training, and have since read of it in classical books (e.g. classical music theory, or philosophy of music books concerned mainly with classical music), as the melodic minor descending. But seems I never understood "natural minor" so maybe unconsiously ignored that term or something.
- adrianmonk 5y ago
  Not the person you asked, but I learned the same terms as on wikipedia (natural, melodic, and harmonic minor) in music theory class. I took the class at a public high school in the US. I think my teacher was also the orchestra teacher. We generally used minor (with no modifiers) to typically mean natural minor, but the teacher also essentially said that minor can mean a lot of things and gets complicated.

thecatster 5y ago

Jazz vibraphonist here: pretty sure there isn't a definitive "minor scale," as you say. 4 (3?) of the modes are considered minor, 2 major, and the weird one (dominant 7). So I completely agree it's a bit misleading to just call things "the minor scale." Although I do think I was initially taught the "minor scale" was the natural minor, so that may be where the OPs decision comes from. Edit: Just saw info on the site. It is using natural.

yesenadam 5y ago
Hi. I don't remember ever hearing the term "natural minor" either hehe. I've never thought about it too much, but I think improvising on a tune with a C- or C-7 etc chord symbol, like a C minor blues, I (mostly) wouldn't use Ab in the scale but A. Dorian is the modern jazz go-to minor scale, I think. Maybe all the versions of So What/Impressions I've been listening to lately have distorted my ear :-) I'd be more likely to use a scale with a B natural than one with an Ab. Well, come to think of it, one of my complaints about the institutionalization of jazz has been that everyone learns to play the same scale over a minor chord! And it's better if everyone has their own ideas...
- airstrike 5y ago
  From https://muted.io/c-minor-scale/ https://muted.io/c-minor-scale/ > C natural minor scale. the default when we just say 'C minor scale'
  - yesenadam 5y ago
    I'm not sure why you quote that at me, how you think that will help. Yes, I had a look after my initial click, and saw that. I don't agree that it's the default, that there even is a "default" minor scale, or that that's the most common name for that mode, but I understand I may be in a minority/wrong.

CPLX 5y ago

Without more to go on I think musicians would pretty unanimously consider "minor" to mean Aeolian, aka the sixth mode of the major scale.

yesenadam 5y ago
Ok thanks, I guess I'm in the, uh, minority.

nescioquid 5y ago

> First thing I clicked on was C minor... which showed me "C minor scale". Problem is.. Is that a thing? I've not heard of "the C minor scale". I don't think it's a thing. (Jazz pianist here) Eh, just worry about Off Minor.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
Of course it's a thing. C major, C natural minor, C melodic minor, C harmonic minor, the whole shebang: all the scales are there for every note, A through G and the sharps/flats. Heck. You could start somewhere in between recognized notes and make a major/minor scale based off that, if you had the right instrument. It's a ratio of frequencies, that's all. That's what all Western music music is based on. Divide the frequency space between N Hz and 2N Hz into 12 segments, pick seven tones out of the 12, then figure out where you're actually going to put the two notes that are right next to each other, half-steps. Extend that for your entire frequency space. (Also, if you devise two neighbor-patterns that are the same when you rotate them around, you're doing modes.) Now, whether anyone plays them in general practice is another thing. Is the harpsichord a real instrument? Obviously on paper, but is it actually a thing?
- yesenadam 5y ago
  I think GP was just making a Monk joke, which I appreciated a lot - it made me smile and made up in a moment for all these downvotes! My "shallow dismissal" made some interesting discussion appear, at least. ..But, it seems maybe you meant to reply to me, not the GP.
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    i might have replied to a child of the post I wanted to reply to yes oooops :D
  - nescioquid 5y ago
    Sorry to hear about the down-votes. Monk always cheers me up, too! I've always found the three forms of the minor scale to be pointless pedantry: Bach was happy enough to write a C-minor piece with two flats on the staff, lowering 6 and raising 7 as needed by voice-leading and harmony, but that doesn't lend itself easily to a silly fingering chart. My misspent youth earned me a degree in theory and composition, but I've found myself in your situation every time I've cracked open a scale book to freshen up and pass a hairy eye-ball over natural, melodic, and harmonic forms. You're right: they are not "real things", they are just a silly pedagogical contraption.

klodolph 5y ago

This is a topic that I think is covered poorly sometimes. It's one of those things that is actually a much longer discussion. Think of it, in increasing complexity, 1. There is a major scale and a minor scale. 2. Actually, there are three minor scales: natural, melodic, and harmonic. 3. Actually, forget about those scales. Think instead more freely about tonality, modal mixtures, secondary dominants, and voice leading. I think that anyone studying music is better off stopping at #1 or going all the way to #3. The problem with stopping at viewpoint #2 is that it's complex enough to make you really think, but not grounded enough in actual musical practice to make that thinking fruitful[1]. There are a lot of reasons why you might want a particular note to be sharp or flat. Sometimes you want a stronger resolution, like V -> i, rather than v -> i, which sounds weak. For that reason, to make better harmony, you may choose to make the 7th scale degree (B) a major 7th (B natural) instead of a minor 7th (B flat). You may also want to resolve a melodic line by half-step, which often sounds stronger, like B->C. But when you are stepping downwards, C->B, that's likely not any kind of resolution, so C->Bb is fine (it's likely not a resolution if you're in the key of C). These melodic concerns drive the "melodic" minor scale (and we drag in the 6th scale degree to avoid an augmented second interval). The catch is... all we're really saying here is, 1. You are free to borrow notes from outside the key, for lots of reasons, and 2. There are lots of reasons in particular why you might want to borrow for the sixth and seventh scale degrees. These deeper concepts get shoehorned into the notions of "melodic minor" and "harmonic minor". So much is lost by shoehorning these ideas into scales that I wonder why we even bother. I think it's really that people like categorizing scales and learning new names for things, which also drives people's fascination with modes, which is totally out of proportion to how much you'd actually want to use them in music. Modes and scales seem to have a particular fascination for hackers in the music scene. I have a lot more to say on this subject, but I'm working on a blog post. [1]: Please note that you definitely can choose to write music using one of these scales as a device, and many people do, and it's good stuff. It's just that most music that most people listen to doesn't make any sense to analyze as using particular minor scales.

yesenadam 5y ago
Very good, I agree with every word of that, I look forward to reading it.

robbrown451 5y ago

"The natural minor scale is the most common minor scale, and the default when a musician refers to “a minor scale” or “minor.” The natural minor scale pattern features the same exact notes as the Aeolian mode in modal music." https://www.masterclass.com/articles/minor-scale-guide#what-is-the-difference-between-major-and-minor-scales https://www.masterclass.com/articles/minor-scale-guide#what-...

yesenadam 5y ago
Well, I've already written too much on this page! But every part of that seems wrong or very strange. And just before what you quoted: > 3 Types of Minor Scales > There are three types of minor scales in music theory. What type of "music theory"? Dorian mode doesn't count? Maybe 3 in classical music theory, not in jazz or..rock/pop/contemporary music etc. And calling them "types" of minor scale sounds very odd to me. > The natural minor scale is the most common minor scale. Is that true? Arguably not. What sort of music are they talking? Does it mean "out of all music ever written" or "nowadays in music" or..something else? They might mean, "in classical music before the mid 19th C" if they say there are 3 minor scales. Or, most likely, "This is true by definition ..because it's called natural minor." - they probably never thought about if it's true or not. The scale of a piece/song (usually) depends on the melody, and I think Aeolian (i.e. "natural") and Dorian are both common. Possibly Dorian is much more common - that "minor 6" sound very common in pop songs since..forever, the 60s if not way before, is Dorian not Aeolian. It's extremely common in R&B etc. Or like..uh..the second chord of Here, There and Everywhere, Gmajor then Amin, the scale is evidently not Aeolian but Dorian. > the default when a musician refers to “a minor scale” or “minor.” Well, this is questionable too. Depends what kind of music. "Minor" mostly refers to a chord, not a scale. I'm not sure people ever say "a minor scale", when would you (need to) say that? It might mean a minor blues scale in some genres. > The natural minor scale pattern features the same exact notes as the Aeolian mode in modal music. I find that super-bizarre and sounds like they don't know what they're talking about. Features the same exact notes?! - it's the same thing. A little like saying "news.ycombinator.com features the same exact articles as Hacker News". You would think "What the hell are they talking about?!", and that's what I think when I read that sentence.

troutmskreplica 5y ago

I’ve read through parts of the Wikipedia page several times in the past. It’s not ideal. I haven’t studied music theory systematically but I believe all the modes that contain a minor third above the root are technically considered minor scales (so Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, and Locrian), but in addition to that there are of course other constructed scales like melodic minor and harmonic minor as you mention, as well as multiple different scales called the Blues minor scale (the only one I’m familiar with is the one constructed from the minor pentatonic plus a diminished fifth).