4 ms·

Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN), but I think that he does understand what you claim he doesn't. The point of his polemi

by ethank 15y ago

Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN), but I think that he does understand what you claim he doesn't. The point of his polemic is not that Microsoft is fundamentally different than Apple in approach and execution. Anyone can see that plain as day. It's not obfuscated in the least. The question is: which approach is right? Removing for a minute the preconceptions of "that's just how they are," which produces better products? I don't think its cut and dry really. Apple currently has some MS type approaches with iOS because of their third party dependencies on software, and Microsoft has Apple approaches (i.e., XBox) because of their lack of such.

varunsrin 15y ago
> "The question is: which approach is right?" The problem is asking that question. It is irrelevant when they products are fundamentally different. Its like comparing, well, apples & oranges. You cannot compare the methodology of a hardware launch (iPad) to a software launch (Windows 8). You do not launch major pieces software without a beta / dev preview release. No one does. Even Apple doesn't do it - Lion, iCloud & iOS5 were released in 'unfinished states', which Gruber claims to abhor. So instead of comparing above mentioned software launches (in an unfinished state) to Windows 8 (also in an unfinished state), Gruber chooses hardware. Compare the Xbox & iPad release schedules, and iOS5/Lion & Windows 8 schedules. I doubt you'll find that the hardware ships with a public beta. And I doubt that you'll find that software ships without a beta.Gruber is twisting examples to suit his arguments, and this is fundamentally flawed logic.
- ethank 15y ago
  Again, "the question is: which approach is right?" assumes that either company COULD change their approach. Should they? Don't conflate what is reality with what could be. If that was the case there wouldn't be an iPad (or X-Box, or Metro).
  - varunsrin 15y ago
    Microsoft does not launch unfinished Xboxes (hardware + software product). Apple does not launch unfinished iPads (hardware + software product) Microsoft launches unfinished Windows builds (software). Apple launches unfinished Lion builds (software). The question is flawed in that it assumes that they companies have different release methodologies for the same class of products. Both Microsoft & Apple are making similar choices for similar classes of products. What Gruber is doing is comparing release methodologies of different classes of products that are in the same market space. What drives the choice of release method is not the market space, but the nature of the product being released.
    - ethank 15y ago
      Actually Microsoft hardware has previewed unfinished hardware which didn't debut at all, or was radically changed: Microsoft Spot Digital Home Courier Tablet And don't get me started on their abandon-ware hardware projects (Networking, WebTV, Digital Photo TV, Zune, Microsoft at Work, MS Automotive, etc)
      - varunsrin 15y ago
        This argument thread is rapidly diverging from the original issue. You are now talking about product announcements, not releases. Windows 8 was 'released' today, not announced like the Courier was. Your current argument now is about a different problem (one that Longhorn / Vista faced), which is about announcing features before they were actually implemented and ready for release. I'm not going to continue this, I believe my point has been made.
      - jonhohle 15y ago
        Don't forget about the Microsoft Cordless Phone (http://web.archive.org/web/20000301023950/http://www.microsoft.com/products/hardware/phone/default.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20000301023950/http://www.microso...) or, of course, Kin.
    - whatusername 15y ago
      Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony absolutely "launch" unfinished consoles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_U http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_U The more 3rd party applications you need on your platform, the longer a lead time you need to give to those 3rd parties. And for that matter -- Apple does launch unfinished iOS builds/features.
recoiledsnake 15y ago
>Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN) Is that why many of Gruber's posts are consistently upvoted on HN? Out of all that was displayed during the keynote, he got only one thing to dwell on. The demo tablet given out has a fan and gets hot? That is like criticizing Windows because Dell makes a pink laptop. There's going to be immense choice. And this going to put pressure on Intel and other OEMs to reduce heat and power consumption to get closer to ARM. What if you want a more powerful iPad? You're SOL.
- X-Istence 15y ago
  This same argument was used for Android tablets, how well has that turned out so far?
- ethank 15y ago
  Why was Microsoft in such a hurry as to release a preview of an OS before the ecosystem was capable of handling it? Explain how putting this out with substandard hardware does anything to bolster confidence from either users or developers? Why not wait until an Arm chassis was ready?
  - blinkingled 15y ago
    Because unless Microsoft shows what they can do with their OS - OEMs will not have a clue to build new hardware capable of complementing the software. Different ball game where tight secrecy doesn't really work - OEMs needs access to what MSFT is doing, developers need it and there are a crazy number of both of them and they need ample time and clear cut communication from Microsoft in order to make and bake their plans. Besides no one is explaining why is demoing a preview OS bad? Because it is out of style? It's not like Microsoft is pushing the preview down the throats of average Joes and Janes. I actually like Microsoft's no surprises approach. It bolsters the confidence of their OEM and Developer demographic. That's how they have been doing it since long time. You would have to be too unrealistic a Microsoft Developer to say "oh that Samsung tablet had a fan. I am just going to ignore Windows 8" - it doesn't make any sense, it's a developer unit and for that it is pretty nice - you can develop and debug on it!
eykanal 15y ago
Gruber is popular on HN because he consistently writes high quality, thought-provoking tech-related articles. Gruber is unpopular because many of his pieces contain enough smug to choke a small giraffe.

by ethank 15y ago

varunsrin 15y ago

> "The question is: which approach is right?" The problem is asking that question. It is irrelevant when they products are fundamentally different. Its like comparing, well, apples & oranges. You cannot compare the methodology of a hardware launch (iPad) to a software launch (Windows 8). You do not launch major pieces software without a beta / dev preview release. No one does. Even Apple doesn't do it - Lion, iCloud & iOS5 were released in 'unfinished states', which Gruber claims to abhor. So instead of comparing above mentioned software launches (in an unfinished state) to Windows 8 (also in an unfinished state), Gruber chooses hardware. Compare the Xbox & iPad release schedules, and iOS5/Lion & Windows 8 schedules. I doubt you'll find that the hardware ships with a public beta. And I doubt that you'll find that software ships without a beta.Gruber is twisting examples to suit his arguments, and this is fundamentally flawed logic.

ethank 15y ago
Again, "the question is: which approach is right?" assumes that either company COULD change their approach. Should they? Don't conflate what is reality with what could be. If that was the case there wouldn't be an iPad (or X-Box, or Metro).
- varunsrin 15y ago
  Microsoft does not launch unfinished Xboxes (hardware + software product). Apple does not launch unfinished iPads (hardware + software product) Microsoft launches unfinished Windows builds (software). Apple launches unfinished Lion builds (software). The question is flawed in that it assumes that they companies have different release methodologies for the same class of products. Both Microsoft & Apple are making similar choices for similar classes of products. What Gruber is doing is comparing release methodologies of different classes of products that are in the same market space. What drives the choice of release method is not the market space, but the nature of the product being released.
  - ethank 15y ago
    Actually Microsoft hardware has previewed unfinished hardware which didn't debut at all, or was radically changed: Microsoft Spot Digital Home Courier Tablet And don't get me started on their abandon-ware hardware projects (Networking, WebTV, Digital Photo TV, Zune, Microsoft at Work, MS Automotive, etc)
    - varunsrin 15y ago
      This argument thread is rapidly diverging from the original issue. You are now talking about product announcements, not releases. Windows 8 was 'released' today, not announced like the Courier was. Your current argument now is about a different problem (one that Longhorn / Vista faced), which is about announcing features before they were actually implemented and ready for release. I'm not going to continue this, I believe my point has been made.
    - jonhohle 15y ago
      Don't forget about the Microsoft Cordless Phone (http://web.archive.org/web/20000301023950/http://www.microsoft.com/products/hardware/phone/default.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20000301023950/http://www.microso...) or, of course, Kin.
  - whatusername 15y ago
    Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony absolutely "launch" unfinished consoles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_U http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_U The more 3rd party applications you need on your platform, the longer a lead time you need to give to those 3rd parties. And for that matter -- Apple does launch unfinished iOS builds/features.

recoiledsnake 15y ago

>Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN) Is that why many of Gruber's posts are consistently upvoted on HN? Out of all that was displayed during the keynote, he got only one thing to dwell on. The demo tablet given out has a fan and gets hot? That is like criticizing Windows because Dell makes a pink laptop. There's going to be immense choice. And this going to put pressure on Intel and other OEMs to reduce heat and power consumption to get closer to ARM. What if you want a more powerful iPad? You're SOL.

X-Istence 15y ago
This same argument was used for Android tablets, how well has that turned out so far?
ethank 15y ago
Why was Microsoft in such a hurry as to release a preview of an OS before the ecosystem was capable of handling it? Explain how putting this out with substandard hardware does anything to bolster confidence from either users or developers? Why not wait until an Arm chassis was ready?
- blinkingled 15y ago
  Because unless Microsoft shows what they can do with their OS - OEMs will not have a clue to build new hardware capable of complementing the software. Different ball game where tight secrecy doesn't really work - OEMs needs access to what MSFT is doing, developers need it and there are a crazy number of both of them and they need ample time and clear cut communication from Microsoft in order to make and bake their plans. Besides no one is explaining why is demoing a preview OS bad? Because it is out of style? It's not like Microsoft is pushing the preview down the throats of average Joes and Janes. I actually like Microsoft's no surprises approach. It bolsters the confidence of their OEM and Developer demographic. That's how they have been doing it since long time. You would have to be too unrealistic a Microsoft Developer to say "oh that Samsung tablet had a fan. I am just going to ignore Windows 8" - it doesn't make any sense, it's a developer unit and for that it is pretty nice - you can develop and debug on it!

eykanal 15y ago

Gruber is popular on HN because he consistently writes high quality, thought-provoking tech-related articles. Gruber is unpopular because many of his pieces contain enough smug to choke a small giraffe.