8 ms·

Also, a lot of the French ones, like “joie de vivre”, have been borrowed into English verbatim. “Joie de vivre” is indeed translatable into English, and the tra

Also, a lot of the French ones, like “joie de vivre”, have been borrowed into English verbatim. “Joie de vivre” is indeed translatable into English, and the translation is just “joie de vivre”. To claim otherwise would be like saying that the concept of chile pepper can only be expressed in Nahuatl.

awb 5y ago
> “Joie de vivre” is indeed translatable into English, and the translation is just “joie de vivre”. I’m a native English speaker and I’ve never heard of the expression “Joie de vivre”, so I don’t understand how “Joie de vivre” is the English translation of “Joie de vivre”.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  Well, that’s unsurprising; nobody can know every expression in any language, even their native one. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/joie%20de%20vivre https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/joie%20de%20vivre
  - awb 5y ago
    Surprising to me. I’m an avid reader of books and news and movie watcher and I’ve never heard this phrase once. I also took 3 years of French, went to a 4 year college and I’ve reviewed lists of foreign phrases commonly used in English with my kids, all while somehow dodging this phrase for ~40 years!
    - throwaway98700k 5y ago
      It’s as common as je ne sais quoi or deja vu or ennui. This one’s on you. Here’s a helpful list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_French_expressions_in_English https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_French_expressio...
      - celtain 5y ago
        It's definitely not as common as deja vu.
      - awb 5y ago
        I’ve heard those other ones a ton of times.
    - irrational 5y ago
      Well, I’m 50 and I’ve heard it before. Maybe you just need to live for 10 more years ;-) https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivre&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivr...
      - awb 5y ago
        Or maybe I needed to be born 10 years earlier :)
- dmitriid 5y ago
  I've seen it once or twice in a book (and I needed to look up its meaning/translation). And it's possible Stephen Fry used it once (possibly on QI). It's one of those weird specific words that you use to show that you're smarter than you are (this doesn't apply to Stephen Fry of course :D )
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ithkuil 5y ago
  Yeah, it's such a cliché. Using too many foreign words is such a faux pas, it reveals the bourgeois character of the speaker. No no no, a real connoisseur of the English language won't have such a lassaiz-faire attitude and accept just any fancy word du jour. That would be so gauche indeed. Au contraire I'm blasé at such attempts. The real English entrepreneurial avant-garde clique has so many choices a la carte, so much joi de vivere in this je ne sais qua of a deja vu. Touché
  - awb 5y ago
    Haha! I followed you until you went pure French.
    - chrismcb 5y ago
      He never went "pure French"
      - awb 5y ago
        Depends on your perspective I guess. I see your point that they’re all phrases in the English dictionary. From a French perspective though it’s mixed French/English until the end which would be entirely French.
        ithkuil 5y ago
        The escalation toward "pure french" was intended as an attempt to mirror https://luminusdadon.wordpress.com/2006/05/04/how-english-becomes-german/amp/ https://luminusdadon.wordpress.com/2006/05/04/how-english-be...
        awb 5y ago
        I remember that from a long time ago. It’s fun to read the last sentence first and have it be unreadable. Then read from the beginning and it’s perfectly readable.
        5y ago
- irrational 5y ago
  https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivre&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivr... It has been estimated that English has more than a million words, what percentage do you think you actually know?
  - awb 5y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44569277 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44569277 > Typically native speakers know 15,000 to 20,000 word families - or lemmas - in their first language. Sounds about right to me.
tremon 5y ago
Also, many expressions have direct translations (sometimes even literal) in other languages from the same family/geographic area. For example, "joie de vivre" has a direct Dutch translation "levenslust". The German words "scheinheilig" and "totschweigen" have direct Dutch equivalents "schijnheilig" and "doodzwijgen", and the Swedish words "förrgår" and "övermorgon" have direct Dutch equivalents "eergisteren" and "overmorgen". Then there's plenty examples where a direct English equivalent exists even if it's not a literal translation of the original: nachäffen (de) = na-apen (nl) = mimicking (en), but English lacks the animal connotation (Affe == aap == ape); schwarzfahren (de) = zwartrijden (nl) = fare dodging (en), but English loses the colour in the expression (Schwarz == zwart == black). Funny thing also that it lists the Spanish "sobremesa" as after-dinner conversation, then lists the Dutch "natafelen" as lingering after having finished dinner, continuing conversation. The two are equivalent expressions, except that one is a noun and one is a verb. Same for "fremdschämen" (de) and "vergüenza ajena" (es), which is known in Dutch as "plaatsvervangende schaamte".
- quantumet 5y ago
  > Then there's plenty examples where a direct English equivalent exists even if it's not a literal translation of the original: nachäffen (de) = na-apen (nl) = mimicking (en), but English lacks the animal connotation (Affe == aap == ape) Even here, english has the term 'aping': https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aaping https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aaping, with the same meaning and retains the same animal connotation.
- vba616 5y ago
  >levenslust I'm not sure of the origin, but "lust for life" is an expression that's been used in English for at least a century, it seems. It was the name of a biography of Vincent Van Gogh. The earliest reference on this page seems to be a German film, so maybe it comes from German: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust_for_Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust_for_Life Hmm, maybe it goes back further - Google Books seems to have some instances from the 19th century. A few are negative, basically using the phrase to mean being worldly and not spiritual, a bad thing or even a "curse". In that sense it wouldn't seem to be the same meaning, but maybe it changed over time.
chrismcb 5y ago
Google claims the translation to English is "joy of living" "joie de vivre"isn't exactly a common phrase in English
- CamTin 5y ago
  In my experience, "joie de vivre" isn't really everyday vocabulary, but then I've never heard the phrase "joy of living" spoken even once. Google trends seems to bear this out: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Joie%20de%20vivre,joy%20of%20living https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Joie%20de%...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

awb 5y ago

> “Joie de vivre” is indeed translatable into English, and the translation is just “joie de vivre”. I’m a native English speaker and I’ve never heard of the expression “Joie de vivre”, so I don’t understand how “Joie de vivre” is the English translation of “Joie de vivre”.

School-Cotton 5y ago
Well, that’s unsurprising; nobody can know every expression in any language, even their native one. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/joie%20de%20vivre https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/joie%20de%20vivre
- awb 5y ago
  Surprising to me. I’m an avid reader of books and news and movie watcher and I’ve never heard this phrase once. I also took 3 years of French, went to a 4 year college and I’ve reviewed lists of foreign phrases commonly used in English with my kids, all while somehow dodging this phrase for ~40 years!
  - throwaway98700k 5y ago
    It’s as common as je ne sais quoi or deja vu or ennui. This one’s on you. Here’s a helpful list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_French_expressions_in_English https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_French_expressio...
    - celtain 5y ago
      It's definitely not as common as deja vu.
    - awb 5y ago
      I’ve heard those other ones a ton of times.
  - irrational 5y ago
    Well, I’m 50 and I’ve heard it before. Maybe you just need to live for 10 more years ;-) https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivre&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivr...
    - awb 5y ago
      Or maybe I needed to be born 10 years earlier :)
dmitriid 5y ago
I've seen it once or twice in a book (and I needed to look up its meaning/translation). And it's possible Stephen Fry used it once (possibly on QI). It's one of those weird specific words that you use to show that you're smarter than you are (this doesn't apply to Stephen Fry of course :D )
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ithkuil 5y ago
Yeah, it's such a cliché. Using too many foreign words is such a faux pas, it reveals the bourgeois character of the speaker. No no no, a real connoisseur of the English language won't have such a lassaiz-faire attitude and accept just any fancy word du jour. That would be so gauche indeed. Au contraire I'm blasé at such attempts. The real English entrepreneurial avant-garde clique has so many choices a la carte, so much joi de vivere in this je ne sais qua of a deja vu. Touché
- awb 5y ago
  Haha! I followed you until you went pure French.
  - chrismcb 5y ago
    He never went "pure French"
    - awb 5y ago
      Depends on your perspective I guess. I see your point that they’re all phrases in the English dictionary. From a French perspective though it’s mixed French/English until the end which would be entirely French.
      - ithkuil 5y ago
        The escalation toward "pure french" was intended as an attempt to mirror https://luminusdadon.wordpress.com/2006/05/04/how-english-becomes-german/amp/ https://luminusdadon.wordpress.com/2006/05/04/how-english-be...
        awb 5y ago
        I remember that from a long time ago. It’s fun to read the last sentence first and have it be unreadable. Then read from the beginning and it’s perfectly readable.
        5y ago
irrational 5y ago
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivre&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivr... It has been estimated that English has more than a million words, what percentage do you think you actually know?
- awb 5y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44569277 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44569277 > Typically native speakers know 15,000 to 20,000 word families - or lemmas - in their first language. Sounds about right to me.

tremon 5y ago

Also, many expressions have direct translations (sometimes even literal) in other languages from the same family/geographic area. For example, "joie de vivre" has a direct Dutch translation "levenslust". The German words "scheinheilig" and "totschweigen" have direct Dutch equivalents "schijnheilig" and "doodzwijgen", and the Swedish words "förrgår" and "övermorgon" have direct Dutch equivalents "eergisteren" and "overmorgen". Then there's plenty examples where a direct English equivalent exists even if it's not a literal translation of the original: nachäffen (de) = na-apen (nl) = mimicking (en), but English lacks the animal connotation (Affe == aap == ape); schwarzfahren (de) = zwartrijden (nl) = fare dodging (en), but English loses the colour in the expression (Schwarz == zwart == black). Funny thing also that it lists the Spanish "sobremesa" as after-dinner conversation, then lists the Dutch "natafelen" as lingering after having finished dinner, continuing conversation. The two are equivalent expressions, except that one is a noun and one is a verb. Same for "fremdschämen" (de) and "vergüenza ajena" (es), which is known in Dutch as "plaatsvervangende schaamte".

quantumet 5y ago
> Then there's plenty examples where a direct English equivalent exists even if it's not a literal translation of the original: nachäffen (de) = na-apen (nl) = mimicking (en), but English lacks the animal connotation (Affe == aap == ape) Even here, english has the term 'aping': https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aaping https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aaping, with the same meaning and retains the same animal connotation.
vba616 5y ago
>levenslust I'm not sure of the origin, but "lust for life" is an expression that's been used in English for at least a century, it seems. It was the name of a biography of Vincent Van Gogh. The earliest reference on this page seems to be a German film, so maybe it comes from German: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust_for_Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust_for_Life Hmm, maybe it goes back further - Google Books seems to have some instances from the 19th century. A few are negative, basically using the phrase to mean being worldly and not spiritual, a bad thing or even a "curse". In that sense it wouldn't seem to be the same meaning, but maybe it changed over time.

chrismcb 5y ago

Google claims the translation to English is "joy of living" "joie de vivre"isn't exactly a common phrase in English

CamTin 5y ago
In my experience, "joie de vivre" isn't really everyday vocabulary, but then I've never heard the phrase "joy of living" spoken even once. Google trends seems to bear this out: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Joie%20de%20vivre,joy%20of%20living https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Joie%20de%...
deleted 5y ago
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