5 ms·

Life honestly becomes so much more pleasant when you avoid interacting with the pronouners as much as possible.

by coolso 5y ago

phs318u 5y ago
I find that sad. Do you also hold that view when interacting with people different in other ways? People that dress differently, hold different political or religious views, people from other places to you? I have acquaintances who was lyrical on the topic of LGBTQ+ folks, feeling that somehow, non-LGBTQ+ folk are being "oppressed". I keep asking them, "What are they taking from you? What could you do before that you're not allowed to do now?". They typically don't respond or change the topic. We both know that the types of behaviours that are no longer "acceptable" lie on a spectrum that starts with "being casually disrespectful", to outright *ism. It's sad to me that a lot of people value the rights of some to be jerks, over the rights of others to partake equally in society and to feel equally safe and valued in public spaces.
- bakugo 5y ago
  - phs318u 5y ago
    Which era of English would you like to certify as being the one and only correct English? US English? British English? 20th century, 17th century, or 14th century English? Languages evolve.
    - coolso 5y ago
      > Which era of English would you like to certify as being the one and only correct English? US English? British English? 20th century, 17th century, or 14th century English? How about the one that I personally use, not the one you insist on me using? > Languages evolve. Naturally and logically, over time, voluntarily - not through a small subset of the population smugly correcting you and shoving it in your face when they themselves (pun intended) regularly mess up the they/them pronoun BS regularly.
- coolso 5y ago
  Oh I’m very much supportive of living your life as you see fit. But it’s the pronouners who insist on you using they/them (grammatically silly) or who insist on sharing their pronouns when it’s obvious what they are, then attempting to guilt you into sharing yours even though they know what yours are. This behavior tends to bleed into other annoying personality traits as well. And yes I do tend to avoid other annoying types of people too, across the spectrum.
  - phs318u 5y ago
    > grammatically silly https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they...
    - coolso 5y ago
      This argument is always brought up - "it was used centuries ago, so it's still valid now!" Except: all normal human beings trip up on it; those who believe in the they/them BS trip up on it; and almost no one who uses this argument supports other things that were done centuries ago, so it's not really arguing in good faith. Arranged marriages at very young ages were a thing centuries ago, should we bring those back? If you want to use custom pronouns, nobody is stopping you. The rest of the world is just annoyed and tired of hearing you desperately announce it every time we see you and we're not going to play along.
      - phs318u 5y ago
        I wasn’t using it as an argument for reverting to some past usage, just pointing out that language and grammar evolve. Just like it evolved away from that usage, it may evolve back. I find the fact that some people are massively triggered by this fascinating. Personally I’m happy to use whatever pronouns people desire for themselves if they make it clear to me. I get it wrong occasionally cos I have a lifetime of doing something different, but if someone has explicitly made their desire known to me, I’ll make the tiniest effort of referring to them as they wish. It’s not a chore for me. I think of it as being polite to that person. If I tell you my name is Mike, and prefer to be called that, would you insist on calling me Michael or Micky or Mickster? Even if I told you I was uncomfortable with that (for my own reasons which I don’t have to share with you)? > every time we see you and we’re not going to play along Im guessing “we” is not referring to yourself here.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Ugh. Hacker News has traditionally been one of the worst places to discuss queer politics, but reading this has made me feel so frustrated that I can't help but weigh in. > I find that sad. Do you also hold that view when interacting with people different in other ways? People that dress differently, hold different political or religious views, people from other places to you? Yep! Ready to get nihilistic? Their existence is pretty much inconsequential to me. Sexuality, gender identity and appearance has quite literally zero bearing on the way I address other people. Unless someone make a concerted effort to be my acquaintance, I will likely forget about their existence within the hour. That doesn't mean I can't sympathize; but the internet has greatly distorted our idea of how important other people actually are. We conflate identity with politics and alliances, we grok importance by follower count and Google search results, it's a disgusting mess that can only be effectively deterred by not caring. Is it sad? Hard to say, but I certainly feel like it's a less frustrating way to live your life when compared to bending over backwards for everyone. I operate with my own interests at heart; as much as I despise Ayn Rand's philosophy, she wasn't wrong when she said that the greatest minority is the individual. > I have acquaintances who was lyrical on the topic of LGBTQ+ folks, feeling that somehow, non-LGBTQ+ folk are being "oppressed". I don't think it's hard to sympathize with that sentiment, even though I'm a gay man myself. I feel embarrassed by the level of entitlement that the rest of the community seems to push, in public and online. A decade ago, the LGBT movement was pretty cut and dried - queer people wanted to integrate into society as normal individuals, without any pretense or opportunity for judgement. In response, they became a protected class and everything was pretty much solved. There hasn't been a legitimate reason to be mad as a gay person since those bakers refused to make a gay wedding cake, and even that only incensed me because it was against the law. As far as I see it, the modern LGBT movement is far too infatuated with liberties that don't exist, and hunting boogeymen that don't care. It makes me ashamed to be queer and wish that I could live in a world where my only identity didn't boil down to "the gay guy".

Life honestly becomes so much more pleasant when you avoid interacting with the pronouners as much as possible.

by coolso 5y ago

Life honestly becomes so much more pleasant when you avoid interacting with the pronouners as much as possible.

I find that sad. Do you also hold that view when interacting with people different in other ways? People that dress differently, hold different political or religious views, people from other places to you? I have acquaintances who was lyrical on the topic of LGBTQ+ folks, feeling that somehow, non-LGBTQ+ folk are being "oppressed". I keep asking them, "What are they taking from you? What could you do before that you're not allowed to do now?". They typically don't respond or change the topic. We both know that the types of behaviours that are no longer "acceptable" lie on a spectrum that starts with "being casually disrespectful", to outright *ism. It's sad to me that a lot of people value the rights of some to be jerks, over the rights of others to partake equally in society and to feel equally safe and valued in public spaces.

bakugo 5y ago
- phs318u 5y ago
  Which era of English would you like to certify as being the one and only correct English? US English? British English? 20th century, 17th century, or 14th century English? Languages evolve.
  - coolso 5y ago
    > Which era of English would you like to certify as being the one and only correct English? US English? British English? 20th century, 17th century, or 14th century English? How about the one that I personally use, not the one you insist on me using? > Languages evolve. Naturally and logically, over time, voluntarily - not through a small subset of the population smugly correcting you and shoving it in your face when they themselves (pun intended) regularly mess up the they/them pronoun BS regularly.
coolso 5y ago
Oh I’m very much supportive of living your life as you see fit. But it’s the pronouners who insist on you using they/them (grammatically silly) or who insist on sharing their pronouns when it’s obvious what they are, then attempting to guilt you into sharing yours even though they know what yours are. This behavior tends to bleed into other annoying personality traits as well. And yes I do tend to avoid other annoying types of people too, across the spectrum.
- phs318u 5y ago
  > grammatically silly https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they...
  - coolso 5y ago
    This argument is always brought up - "it was used centuries ago, so it's still valid now!" Except: all normal human beings trip up on it; those who believe in the they/them BS trip up on it; and almost no one who uses this argument supports other things that were done centuries ago, so it's not really arguing in good faith. Arranged marriages at very young ages were a thing centuries ago, should we bring those back? If you want to use custom pronouns, nobody is stopping you. The rest of the world is just annoyed and tired of hearing you desperately announce it every time we see you and we're not going to play along.
    - phs318u 5y ago
      I wasn’t using it as an argument for reverting to some past usage, just pointing out that language and grammar evolve. Just like it evolved away from that usage, it may evolve back. I find the fact that some people are massively triggered by this fascinating. Personally I’m happy to use whatever pronouns people desire for themselves if they make it clear to me. I get it wrong occasionally cos I have a lifetime of doing something different, but if someone has explicitly made their desire known to me, I’ll make the tiniest effort of referring to them as they wish. It’s not a chore for me. I think of it as being polite to that person. If I tell you my name is Mike, and prefer to be called that, would you insist on calling me Michael or Micky or Mickster? Even if I told you I was uncomfortable with that (for my own reasons which I don’t have to share with you)? > every time we see you and we’re not going to play along Im guessing “we” is not referring to yourself here.
smoldesu 5y ago
Ugh. Hacker News has traditionally been one of the worst places to discuss queer politics, but reading this has made me feel so frustrated that I can't help but weigh in. > I find that sad. Do you also hold that view when interacting with people different in other ways? People that dress differently, hold different political or religious views, people from other places to you? Yep! Ready to get nihilistic? Their existence is pretty much inconsequential to me. Sexuality, gender identity and appearance has quite literally zero bearing on the way I address other people. Unless someone make a concerted effort to be my acquaintance, I will likely forget about their existence within the hour. That doesn't mean I can't sympathize; but the internet has greatly distorted our idea of how important other people actually are. We conflate identity with politics and alliances, we grok importance by follower count and Google search results, it's a disgusting mess that can only be effectively deterred by not caring. Is it sad? Hard to say, but I certainly feel like it's a less frustrating way to live your life when compared to bending over backwards for everyone. I operate with my own interests at heart; as much as I despise Ayn Rand's philosophy, she wasn't wrong when she said that the greatest minority is the individual. > I have acquaintances who was lyrical on the topic of LGBTQ+ folks, feeling that somehow, non-LGBTQ+ folk are being "oppressed". I don't think it's hard to sympathize with that sentiment, even though I'm a gay man myself. I feel embarrassed by the level of entitlement that the rest of the community seems to push, in public and online. A decade ago, the LGBT movement was pretty cut and dried - queer people wanted to integrate into society as normal individuals, without any pretense or opportunity for judgement. In response, they became a protected class and everything was pretty much solved. There hasn't been a legitimate reason to be mad as a gay person since those bakers refused to make a gay wedding cake, and even that only incensed me because it was against the law. As far as I see it, the modern LGBT movement is far too infatuated with liberties that don't exist, and hunting boogeymen that don't care. It makes me ashamed to be queer and wish that I could live in a world where my only identity didn't boil down to "the gay guy".