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This comment covered several hot topics. 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at

This comment covered several hot topics. 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. 2. CS is part coding, part science of algorithms, and part software engineering. We have to quit intertwingling all terms into the catchall "CS" bucket because sometimes "how to run excel" gets thrown in there too. Maybe best to drop the term altogether and use more descriptive names for each study.

travisd 5y ago
RE: 2: I think I agree. There are lots of "CS" programs targeted towards high-school students which I have mixed feelings about. The goal shouldn't be to turn every student that walks through the door into a SWE (there's somewhat of a conflict of interest here considering most programs are sponsored by big tech companies who are desperate for talent – Microsoft does a lot in this space). Instead, I think it should serve a few roles: expose students to new opportunities (learn if you do want to be a SWE); give students the skills to understand that computers and algorithms are not magic (important from a public awareness perspective); and also to teach enough "deep" technical skills to prepare them for a world dominated by software (e.g., learning how to query databases, write small automations, etc.). But I think most important is that intro courses need to serve as jumping off points (i.e., they should be INTRO courses). Give students a taste and let them decide if they like it and want to take another bite.
throw_m239339 5y ago
> 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. Girls in STEM =/= Girls becoming professional programmers. There are plenty of girls in STEM fields such as medicine, biology, geology, physics, Math, civil engineering... The fact that not a lot of them want to be forced to sit before a computer 10 hours a day for the rest of their lives certainly isn't an issue if you asks me...
- andrewzah 5y ago
  Sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day isn't a gendered thing. There is nothing about computer science or programming that is gender specific. It, ideally, should sit around 50-50, ±5%. So yes, it is a problem that it so heavily skews male. As to why, it's multi-faceted cultural issue, with how our society treats boys and girls starting from birth. In other words, a pipeline issue.
  - throw_m239339 5y ago
    I never said or implied that programming was sexed, I told the parent that just because they are fewer female developers doesn't mean the sex imbalance is the same or even skewed heavily toward males in every STEM discipline.
  - hackinthebochs 5y ago
    It is not clear that interest in extended computer use isn't gendered. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/
  - nottorp 5y ago
    > Sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day isn't a gendered thing. Except the 10 hour a day part :) I believe the tendency to overwork is mostly a male thing.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" To me, the very existence of "Girls in STEM" groups is sending a weird message to girls (and I’m apparently not the only one to think that). Something along the lines of “sure you can do STEM, you’re just not good enough to do it the regular way so we created a group just for you”. Honestly that’s the message a lot of diversity initiatives end up sending.
  - ejb999 5y ago
    couldn't agree more - have STEM groups and encourage everyone that wants in, to join, but don't make them sit in the 'special class' separate from everyone else.

travisd 5y ago

RE: 2: I think I agree. There are lots of "CS" programs targeted towards high-school students which I have mixed feelings about. The goal shouldn't be to turn every student that walks through the door into a SWE (there's somewhat of a conflict of interest here considering most programs are sponsored by big tech companies who are desperate for talent – Microsoft does a lot in this space). Instead, I think it should serve a few roles: expose students to new opportunities (learn if you do want to be a SWE); give students the skills to understand that computers and algorithms are not magic (important from a public awareness perspective); and also to teach enough "deep" technical skills to prepare them for a world dominated by software (e.g., learning how to query databases, write small automations, etc.). But I think most important is that intro courses need to serve as jumping off points (i.e., they should be INTRO courses). Give students a taste and let them decide if they like it and want to take another bite.

throw_m239339 5y ago

> 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. Girls in STEM =/= Girls becoming professional programmers. There are plenty of girls in STEM fields such as medicine, biology, geology, physics, Math, civil engineering... The fact that not a lot of them want to be forced to sit before a computer 10 hours a day for the rest of their lives certainly isn't an issue if you asks me...

andrewzah 5y ago
Sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day isn't a gendered thing. There is nothing about computer science or programming that is gender specific. It, ideally, should sit around 50-50, ±5%. So yes, it is a problem that it so heavily skews male. As to why, it's multi-faceted cultural issue, with how our society treats boys and girls starting from birth. In other words, a pipeline issue.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  I never said or implied that programming was sexed, I told the parent that just because they are fewer female developers doesn't mean the sex imbalance is the same or even skewed heavily toward males in every STEM discipline.
- hackinthebochs 5y ago
  It is not clear that interest in extended computer use isn't gendered. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/
- nottorp 5y ago
  > Sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day isn't a gendered thing. Except the 10 hour a day part :) I believe the tendency to overwork is mostly a male thing.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" To me, the very existence of "Girls in STEM" groups is sending a weird message to girls (and I’m apparently not the only one to think that). Something along the lines of “sure you can do STEM, you’re just not good enough to do it the regular way so we created a group just for you”. Honestly that’s the message a lot of diversity initiatives end up sending.
- ejb999 5y ago
  couldn't agree more - have STEM groups and encourage everyone that wants in, to join, but don't make them sit in the 'special class' separate from everyone else.