5 ms·

This is the whole thing that has to stop though. We bring up how deadly covid is, and how vaccinations help reduce symptoms, but no one is pointing out the mos

This is the whole thing that has to stop though. We bring up how deadly covid is, and how vaccinations help reduce symptoms, but no one is pointing out the most insane thing of the blatant discrimination against unvaccinated people to be denied entry to a place without proof of vaccination, even though, vaccinated people are still spreading the disease. I’m sorry but supporting this crap is insanity. You literally are taking a group of people and making them the dirty untouchables, saying “show me your papers” like the discriminative parties of the past. The weird thing is those who told blacks to get to the back of the bus or called the police on their neighbor for hiding a Jew in their basement also were as convinced as all these people who defend vaccine mandates.

ls15 5y ago
> called the police on their neighbor for hiding a Jew in their basement also were as convinced as all these people who defend vaccine mandates. While I would like to stay away from that comparison, there are structural similarities that cannot be denied: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesellschaft/impfausweise-razzien-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesellschaft/impfausweise-r... > Zeugen war laut Polizei aufgefallen, dass vor der Arztpraxis immer wieder Autos mit Kennzeichen aus dem gesamten süddeutschen Raum geparkt haben sollen. > Die Polizei klingelte in den frühen Morgenstunden: Die Beamten durchsuchten in Bayern, Baden-Württemberg, Hessen und Nordrhein-Westfalen Wohnungen von mehr als 100 Menschen, die sich falsche Impfbescheinigungen besorgt haben sollen. Die Ermittler stellten bei der Aktion unter anderem Impfausweise und Smartphones sicher. > Zudem wurde bei den Verdächtigen Blut entnommen, wie ein Sprecher der Polizei erklärte. Über einen Antikörper-Test will man nachweisen, dass sie nicht geimpft sind. Rough summary in English: Bavarian police caught a doctor who handed out fake vaccine certs. The neighbours called the police, because they noticed unusual license plates on parking cars. The police raided 100 patients' homes and took blood samples from them.
hilbert42 5y ago
"...blatant discrimination against unvaccinated" Damn right it is, and they ought to be discriminated against for the safety of others—and that includes me! I don't want any unvaccinated person near me because I am more likely to die as a consequence and I expect the Government to keep them away from me at all costs—for it is the constitutional duty of government to protect me as a citizen from threat and danger. Clearly, you do not realize that this is how our governance works (or is supposed to work). (It seems that you never did civics or history at school). To enlighten you, democratic government works on the principle of a covenant that exists between the citizenry and government, which boils down to this: 'Citizens, do the right thing and obey the laws and in return we, the government, will protect you from harm and danger'. Government protects its citizens against external enemies with an army, it protects them against internal threats with a police force, and when an unseen pandemic virus threatens, it then takes many other measures to protect us citizens including introduction of special rules, quarantining and isolating those with disease etc. It has always been thus for centuries across many counties. How many instances and examples would you like? Do an internet search. Just because these facts are new to you and that you have never previously experienced a pandemic in your lifetime then it doesn't mean that such action by governments is not normal practice. Well, I can assure that it fucking-well is normal practice and that you need to get used to the fact or alternatively withdraw from society altogether. If you still do not follow then let me give you an in-your-face example that you will understand: if someone decides to walk down the main street of a city brandishing and firing an AK47 at random then citizens expect the police to arrest and demobilize him immediately (if he's unlucky then he'll likely be shot dead in the process). Well, the situation with a person loose in society who is carrying a lethal virus that can kill those who catch it only differs by fact that the person may not know that they are carrying said virus—hence general rules for everyone apply—isolation, masks, etc., etc. Now if that person is knowingly carrying the virus and then deliberately defies authority then he/she is no different to the person who is carrying the AK47 and he/she needs to be arrested and isolated immediately for the very reason that he/she is a danger to everybody that he/she comes in contact with! QED! You many think this is insanity but very thankfully, most people and most governments around the world disagree with your view. We're also very thankful for that fact that those who hold views such as yours are in the minority. For your information, those who are vaccinated are far less likely to spread the virus in anywhere near the same quantities. It is not a perfect situation but it's a damned side better scenario for an uninfected person to come in contact with a vaccinated person with the virus than one who has the virus and is not vaccinated. Whatever you may think, there is absolutely no argument against this. That's why everyone is still subject to virus hygiene rules. And in case if you've forgotten, hygiene rules have existed across society long before the arrival of COVID; these new rules are only an extension thereof. Perhaps you would like to explain why you think the way you do.
- ls15 5y ago
  > I don't want any unvaccinated person near me because I am more likely to die as a consequence and I expect the Government to keep them away from me at all costs—for it is the constitutional duty of government to protect me as a citizen from threat and danger. The vaccines are not reasonably effective against transmission, especially for the current dominant strain, but also the previous ones. Vaccinated people are still infecting people that were not able to be vaccinated and other vaccinated people as well - that's actually happening at the Australian Open right now. The absolute risk reduction of the vaccines is below 3%. [0] The guilt-tripping is not based on facts or science, but on fear, the flawed idea that you could eliminate risk from life, as well as lack of respect for other people's freedoms. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00069-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5... > It has always been thus for centuries across many counties. How many instances and examples would you like? Do an internet search. Just because these facts are new to you and that you have never previously experienced a pandemic in your lifetime then it doesn't mean that such action by governments is not normal practice. Well, I can assure that it fucking-well is normal practice and that you need to get used to the fact or alternatively withdraw from society altogether. Witch-hunts used to be common too, but that does not mean that we should bring them back.
  - hilbert42 5y ago
    "The vaccines are not reasonably effective against transmission, especially for the current dominant strain, but also the previous ones. Vaccinated people are still infecting people..." Perhaps so, but those who are vaccinated shed less viral load, ipso facto it's less likely that another person would be infected. Same goes for masks: viral load is attenuated when someone with COVID breathes out, if an uninfected person nearby also has a mask then there's further viral load attenuation when he/she breathes in. Morever the attenuation is not just additive but rather it's multiplicative - and that's the big deal, it's why everyone should wear masks. It's the reason why they're often mandated for everyone. Even if vaccines are minimally effective in stopping the spread of the virus, if you then factor in masks then up goes the attenuation again (check the figures from recent research, there are quite a few papers around by now - and they'll all be saying essentially the same thing). If vaccinated people are infecting others then one needs to ask why. First, I'd suggest that almost none of the general public are wearing the effective N95/P2 masks (they are certified and type approved by regulation). Instead, most are wearing surgical masks which are nigh on useless for COVID, especially so when huge numbers of people wear them down around their chin - their mouths may be covered but the masks are essentially useless when their noses are exposed (one has to wonder what's wrong with these idiots, either they've room-temperature IQs or a death wish). Remember, surgical masks have no airtight seal as do N95/P2s, their original purpose was to catch spit and droplets that fall onto patients when a surgeon is talking and they work for that purpose. Frankly, the fact that governments have failed to give proper instruction/training to their citizens about proper mask usage and hygiene (by TV ads etc.) has been an unmitigated fucking disaster. If proper, effective masking had been employed then likely 30% of the 5.4 million who've already died to date would still be alive now. (I accept that early on there was a mask shortage, this was a significant problem but there are any number of proper certified masks now available.) Why do I care that others aren't wearing their masks properly? For the same reasons I mentioned earlier, which is when they fail to wear them in the correct and effective way then they also degrade my protection to unacceptable levels. "The absolute risk reduction of the vaccines is below 3%. [0] The guilt-tripping is not based on facts or science, but on fear, the flawed idea that you could eliminate risk from life, as well as lack of respect for other people's freedoms." Well, I'd suggest you're wrong with that 3% - damn lies and statistics taken out of context. Look at these realworld figures. Yes, there is breakthrough with vaccines but it's a no-brainer to be both fully vaccinated with booster and for those around you to be of the same status. With proper mask protection as well then one has a much better chance of either not catching the virus or only getting mild symptoms. https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data HN's comments link: https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29956681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29956681 Why are people like you so damn negative about this and so deliberately intent in disrupting society when it's in such a state of stress? Why are so many of you so intent in trying to undermine and sabotage the rest of us when we're doing our darndest to try and protect ourselves from this cursed disease? You are forcing us to fight on two fronts and it's damn inconsiderate and selfish of you to do so. You may not care about your own lives but reasonable people are normally considerate of others. And why are you continually whingeing about your so-called freedoms and rights in this terrible time with millions of people dying, especially when it takes so little effort to comply with the mask and vaccination rules? After all, the majority of us are doing our best to follow the best scientific advice available. And science is by far our best option and way out of this unholy mess. Sure, the science is not perfect but then it's still early days for research (and what we've achieved in only a couple of years has been truly phenomenal). Even my valid points about well accepted practices that countries have adopted during pandemics from centuries back right up to the present you've dismissed and poo-pooed and even tried to parallel them with the workings of a witch hunt when they're nothing of the sort. Counties have adopted these practices/solutions during pandemics because they've found that through centuries of experience that they provide the best practical outcomes. No one ever said they were perfect, we've always known they're not. It would be interesting to contemplate the outcomes if the tables were turned and instead we were dealing with the polio epidemic of the 1950s and '60s. I wonder if the anti-vaxxers and naysayers would be so inconsiderate and disruptive. I seriously doubt it, and I'd pretty much bet they'd be vaccinated in a flash. One look at young kids dying, or paralyzed and unable to breathe and having to be kept alive in iron lungs often for the rest of their lives; or with legs so paralyzed that they were barely able to walk with crutches, then I'd reckon they would quickly change their minds. Well, lived through that time and it was horrible, a kid in my class died and two others were left with paralyzed legs and unable to walk without the aid of crutches, we were always wondering if we'd be next. When the Salk vaccine arrived in the 1960s it was welcome with open joy. There weren't any recalcitrant mobs marching down the street demanding their freedoms and rights. Any such action would have been unthinkable. Instead no one opted out except for a very small minority on religious grounds but they'd long done so for other medical procedures. There was no messing about either, my school of just under 1,100 kids was completely vaccinated between the midmorning break and lunchtime. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/remembering-australia-s-polio-scourge https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/remembering-australi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_lung https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_lung

ls15 5y ago

> called the police on their neighbor for hiding a Jew in their basement also were as convinced as all these people who defend vaccine mandates. While I would like to stay away from that comparison, there are structural similarities that cannot be denied: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesellschaft/impfausweise-razzien-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesellschaft/impfausweise-r... > Zeugen war laut Polizei aufgefallen, dass vor der Arztpraxis immer wieder Autos mit Kennzeichen aus dem gesamten süddeutschen Raum geparkt haben sollen. > Die Polizei klingelte in den frühen Morgenstunden: Die Beamten durchsuchten in Bayern, Baden-Württemberg, Hessen und Nordrhein-Westfalen Wohnungen von mehr als 100 Menschen, die sich falsche Impfbescheinigungen besorgt haben sollen. Die Ermittler stellten bei der Aktion unter anderem Impfausweise und Smartphones sicher. > Zudem wurde bei den Verdächtigen Blut entnommen, wie ein Sprecher der Polizei erklärte. Über einen Antikörper-Test will man nachweisen, dass sie nicht geimpft sind. Rough summary in English: Bavarian police caught a doctor who handed out fake vaccine certs. The neighbours called the police, because they noticed unusual license plates on parking cars. The police raided 100 patients' homes and took blood samples from them.

hilbert42 5y ago

"...blatant discrimination against unvaccinated" Damn right it is, and they ought to be discriminated against for the safety of others—and that includes me! I don't want any unvaccinated person near me because I am more likely to die as a consequence and I expect the Government to keep them away from me at all costs—for it is the constitutional duty of government to protect me as a citizen from threat and danger. Clearly, you do not realize that this is how our governance works (or is supposed to work). (It seems that you never did civics or history at school). To enlighten you, democratic government works on the principle of a covenant that exists between the citizenry and government, which boils down to this: 'Citizens, do the right thing and obey the laws and in return we, the government, will protect you from harm and danger'. Government protects its citizens against external enemies with an army, it protects them against internal threats with a police force, and when an unseen pandemic virus threatens, it then takes many other measures to protect us citizens including introduction of special rules, quarantining and isolating those with disease etc. It has always been thus for centuries across many counties. How many instances and examples would you like? Do an internet search. Just because these facts are new to you and that you have never previously experienced a pandemic in your lifetime then it doesn't mean that such action by governments is not normal practice. Well, I can assure that it fucking-well is normal practice and that you need to get used to the fact or alternatively withdraw from society altogether. If you still do not follow then let me give you an in-your-face example that you will understand: if someone decides to walk down the main street of a city brandishing and firing an AK47 at random then citizens expect the police to arrest and demobilize him immediately (if he's unlucky then he'll likely be shot dead in the process). Well, the situation with a person loose in society who is carrying a lethal virus that can kill those who catch it only differs by fact that the person may not know that they are carrying said virus—hence general rules for everyone apply—isolation, masks, etc., etc. Now if that person is knowingly carrying the virus and then deliberately defies authority then he/she is no different to the person who is carrying the AK47 and he/she needs to be arrested and isolated immediately for the very reason that he/she is a danger to everybody that he/she comes in contact with! QED! You many think this is insanity but very thankfully, most people and most governments around the world disagree with your view. We're also very thankful for that fact that those who hold views such as yours are in the minority. For your information, those who are vaccinated are far less likely to spread the virus in anywhere near the same quantities. It is not a perfect situation but it's a damned side better scenario for an uninfected person to come in contact with a vaccinated person with the virus than one who has the virus and is not vaccinated. Whatever you may think, there is absolutely no argument against this. That's why everyone is still subject to virus hygiene rules. And in case if you've forgotten, hygiene rules have existed across society long before the arrival of COVID; these new rules are only an extension thereof. Perhaps you would like to explain why you think the way you do.

ls15 5y ago
> I don't want any unvaccinated person near me because I am more likely to die as a consequence and I expect the Government to keep them away from me at all costs—for it is the constitutional duty of government to protect me as a citizen from threat and danger. The vaccines are not reasonably effective against transmission, especially for the current dominant strain, but also the previous ones. Vaccinated people are still infecting people that were not able to be vaccinated and other vaccinated people as well - that's actually happening at the Australian Open right now. The absolute risk reduction of the vaccines is below 3%. [0] The guilt-tripping is not based on facts or science, but on fear, the flawed idea that you could eliminate risk from life, as well as lack of respect for other people's freedoms. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00069-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5... > It has always been thus for centuries across many counties. How many instances and examples would you like? Do an internet search. Just because these facts are new to you and that you have never previously experienced a pandemic in your lifetime then it doesn't mean that such action by governments is not normal practice. Well, I can assure that it fucking-well is normal practice and that you need to get used to the fact or alternatively withdraw from society altogether. Witch-hunts used to be common too, but that does not mean that we should bring them back.
- hilbert42 5y ago
  "The vaccines are not reasonably effective against transmission, especially for the current dominant strain, but also the previous ones. Vaccinated people are still infecting people..." Perhaps so, but those who are vaccinated shed less viral load, ipso facto it's less likely that another person would be infected. Same goes for masks: viral load is attenuated when someone with COVID breathes out, if an uninfected person nearby also has a mask then there's further viral load attenuation when he/she breathes in. Morever the attenuation is not just additive but rather it's multiplicative - and that's the big deal, it's why everyone should wear masks. It's the reason why they're often mandated for everyone. Even if vaccines are minimally effective in stopping the spread of the virus, if you then factor in masks then up goes the attenuation again (check the figures from recent research, there are quite a few papers around by now - and they'll all be saying essentially the same thing). If vaccinated people are infecting others then one needs to ask why. First, I'd suggest that almost none of the general public are wearing the effective N95/P2 masks (they are certified and type approved by regulation). Instead, most are wearing surgical masks which are nigh on useless for COVID, especially so when huge numbers of people wear them down around their chin - their mouths may be covered but the masks are essentially useless when their noses are exposed (one has to wonder what's wrong with these idiots, either they've room-temperature IQs or a death wish). Remember, surgical masks have no airtight seal as do N95/P2s, their original purpose was to catch spit and droplets that fall onto patients when a surgeon is talking and they work for that purpose. Frankly, the fact that governments have failed to give proper instruction/training to their citizens about proper mask usage and hygiene (by TV ads etc.) has been an unmitigated fucking disaster. If proper, effective masking had been employed then likely 30% of the 5.4 million who've already died to date would still be alive now. (I accept that early on there was a mask shortage, this was a significant problem but there are any number of proper certified masks now available.) Why do I care that others aren't wearing their masks properly? For the same reasons I mentioned earlier, which is when they fail to wear them in the correct and effective way then they also degrade my protection to unacceptable levels. "The absolute risk reduction of the vaccines is below 3%. [0] The guilt-tripping is not based on facts or science, but on fear, the flawed idea that you could eliminate risk from life, as well as lack of respect for other people's freedoms." Well, I'd suggest you're wrong with that 3% - damn lies and statistics taken out of context. Look at these realworld figures. Yes, there is breakthrough with vaccines but it's a no-brainer to be both fully vaccinated with booster and for those around you to be of the same status. With proper mask protection as well then one has a much better chance of either not catching the virus or only getting mild symptoms. https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data HN's comments link: https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29956681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29956681 Why are people like you so damn negative about this and so deliberately intent in disrupting society when it's in such a state of stress? Why are so many of you so intent in trying to undermine and sabotage the rest of us when we're doing our darndest to try and protect ourselves from this cursed disease? You are forcing us to fight on two fronts and it's damn inconsiderate and selfish of you to do so. You may not care about your own lives but reasonable people are normally considerate of others. And why are you continually whingeing about your so-called freedoms and rights in this terrible time with millions of people dying, especially when it takes so little effort to comply with the mask and vaccination rules? After all, the majority of us are doing our best to follow the best scientific advice available. And science is by far our best option and way out of this unholy mess. Sure, the science is not perfect but then it's still early days for research (and what we've achieved in only a couple of years has been truly phenomenal). Even my valid points about well accepted practices that countries have adopted during pandemics from centuries back right up to the present you've dismissed and poo-pooed and even tried to parallel them with the workings of a witch hunt when they're nothing of the sort. Counties have adopted these practices/solutions during pandemics because they've found that through centuries of experience that they provide the best practical outcomes. No one ever said they were perfect, we've always known they're not. It would be interesting to contemplate the outcomes if the tables were turned and instead we were dealing with the polio epidemic of the 1950s and '60s. I wonder if the anti-vaxxers and naysayers would be so inconsiderate and disruptive. I seriously doubt it, and I'd pretty much bet they'd be vaccinated in a flash. One look at young kids dying, or paralyzed and unable to breathe and having to be kept alive in iron lungs often for the rest of their lives; or with legs so paralyzed that they were barely able to walk with crutches, then I'd reckon they would quickly change their minds. Well, lived through that time and it was horrible, a kid in my class died and two others were left with paralyzed legs and unable to walk without the aid of crutches, we were always wondering if we'd be next. When the Salk vaccine arrived in the 1960s it was welcome with open joy. There weren't any recalcitrant mobs marching down the street demanding their freedoms and rights. Any such action would have been unthinkable. Instead no one opted out except for a very small minority on religious grounds but they'd long done so for other medical procedures. There was no messing about either, my school of just under 1,100 kids was completely vaccinated between the midmorning break and lunchtime. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/remembering-australia-s-polio-scourge https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/remembering-australi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_lung https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_lung